Incident in Riberas

Thanks for the repeat of the flow chart and the information.

So, if I understand correctly, if I am unconscious but have my IMSS card in my wallet and it is current, will I be taken directly to an IMSS hospital and my doctor, whose card is also in my wallet, also will be called? Or will I be left at the Red Cross for some other action to be taken?

gringal wrote:Thanks for the repeat of the flow chart and the information.

So, if I understand correctly, if I am unconscious but have my IMSS card in my wallet and it is current, will I be taken directly to an IMSS hospital and my doctor, whose card is also in my wallet, also will be called? Or will I be left at the Red Cross for some other action to be taken?

Hi Gringal,

Our Mexican housekeeper, who has been with IMSS for many years, just told me that IMSS here in Chapala has its own ambulances, to take you to a hospital,.... but she also said that at night time, the ambulance drivers many times, need to be found somewhere (as they could be at home). Again, a lot of valuable time could be wasted.

With the Chapala clinic, I would plead for one uniform system for all emergencies at Lakeside (instead of red cross, IMSS, seguro popular, private insurances,...). I believe that only by keeping it simple and straightforward, lifes can be saved.
In the case of the above mentioned victim.... he should have been taken straight from the crime scene to the hospital (his condition was grave enough at that moment to decide that), instead of taking him to the red cross, taking him in and out of the ambulance, after all, travelling time in an ambulance from Riberas to Guad could not be that much more then getting him into Chapala first, where the care he needed is not available.

Based on Dr. Thelin's explanations, it seems that, while no hospital can refuse to treat someone for emergency needs, public hospitals can avoid that issue, if the patient arrives by ambulance, since the ambulance service requires a permit from S.A.M.U. or the patient will be refused (and the ambulance service fined) even if the patient needs emergency treatment, which will not be provided without the S.A.M.U. permit. Therefore, it seems that the Cruz Roja has no option but to wait for a S.A.M.U. permit before transporting a patient to a public hospital. However, it somewhat hazy as to what happens at a Private Hospital, which according to Dr. Thelin, is required to provide emergency treatment, although the hospital will try to find someone to accept financial responsibly, other than the patient. My question is, if the patient is in need of emergency treatment, and arrives in an ambulance without someone who will accept financial responsibility, presumably the hospital must treat on an emergency basis, then what happens? If the patient dies, the estate would be responsible, but, if the patient lives, and has to pay the private hospital bill, will he be grateful to the Cruz Roja, or think that the Cruz Roja should not have taken him to a private hospital without his permission? If it is possible, perhaps the Cruz Roja could establish a policy that, when the patient is in a life-threatening condition, they will start to transport the patient to Guadalajara, and if the S.A.M.U. permit is not received by the time they arrive in Guadalajara, the ambulance will be directed to the closest private hospital, then deal with the fallout. Might that work, or do Private Hospitals have a way to avoid accepting patients without proof of financial responsibility? I certainly would feel more comfortable knowing that I will receive treatment quickly, regardless of whether I have my wallet with me.

In the meantime, remember that most of the people with opinions have no idea what happened in this case, their opinions are based on suppositions and rumors.

Unless the Chapala Clinic provides ambulance service, regardless of how well equipped it might be, how does that help you if you were seriously injured in your house or in a car accident, and needed an ambulance. Before you blast the Cruz Roja, get real facts, and you will likely discover that they did everything that they could. The best defense is to have lots of good friends who check on you regularly, and have information about what you would want them to do in an emergency.

elbelgicano wrote:

gringal wrote:Thanks for the repeat of the flow chart and the information.

So, if I understand correctly, if I am unconscious but have my IMSS card in my wallet and it is current, will I be taken directly to an IMSS hospital and my doctor, whose card is also in my wallet, also will be called? Or will I be left at the Red Cross for some other action to be taken?

Hi Gringal,

Our Mexican housekeeper, who has been with IMSS for many years, just told me that IMSS here in Chapala has its own ambulances, to take you to a hospital,.... but she also said that at night time, the ambulance drivers many times, need to be found somewhere (as they could be at home). Again, a lot of valuable time could be wasted.

With the Chapala clinic, I would plead for one uniform system for all emergencies at Lakeside (instead of red cross, IMSS, seguro popular, private insurances,...). I believe that only by keeping it simple and straightforward, lifes can be saved.
In the case of the above mentioned victim.... he should have been taken straight from the crime scene to the hospital (his condition was grave enough at that moment to decide that), instead of taking him to the red cross, taking him in and out of the ambulance, after all, travelling time in an ambulance from Riberas to Guad could not be that much more then getting him into Chapala first, where the care he needed is not available.

If you have IMSS, the waiting period is usually only as long as it takes to write the paperwork (transfer letter and legal findings of lesions if trauma). It takes on an average 20 minutes to diagnose the problem, write the documents, call, and get permission. Exceptions are when SAMU is overloaded and the phone does not get answered until minutes later, multiple victims (one doctor has to write all the paperwork for each patient), or in very, very rare cases that IMSS has to wait for space.

The IMSS clinic could take you directly to am IMSS hospital, but I personally do not know anyone who has had any such luck with IMSS in Chapala. In one case, a Mexican with IMSS went to the clinic with a femoral artery bleed. He had to put pressure on the artery or else he would bleed to death in several minutes. IMSS in Chapala told him they had no one to drive the ambulance, and told him to go to the Cruz Roja so the Cruz Roja could call S.A.M.U. and take the IMSS patient to an IMSS hospital using the Cruz Roja ambulance. This was early afternoon.

As for your idea of one system, it exists. It is called S.A.M.U. Like it or not, that is the system in Mexico. As far as "he should have been taken directly to Guadalajara", you do not know if it would be better to go directly to GDL or not. Some patients are sure to die in 20 minutes without some type of primary stabilization. The next time someone needs to be taken directly to Guadalajara, can we call you to be the person financially responsible?

Quote Dr. Sam: "The next time someone needs to be taken directly to Guadalajara, can we call you to be the person financially responsible?"

Exactly the type statement that causes one to wonder about you!

You know, Doc, you'd be doing the Red Cross and yourself a favor if you'd cut the sarcasm from your posts. Sure, most people are ignorant about the inner workings and procedures here of how medical emergencies are handled and may offer some pretty stupid opinions, but instead of taking in personal, as it seems you occasionally do, why don't you calmly explain the situation so as to enlighten the posters on this board. Just a thought.

elbelgicano wrote:I was at the memorial service yesterday and talked to people who were with him and, you can write as many articles as you like and try to paint as beautiful explanation as you want.... This is unforgivable and people should really think, not twice, but 10 times before contributing to the red cross !
You like to compare to ANY other country.... well, in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride ????

I am very sad and angry but apart from being critical, I also have a suggestion.
The Chapala clinic moved into brand new, clean and spatious premises a couple of months ago. They have wonderful doctors and nurses but no equipment. I am highly convinced that there is where the money should go, to help them buy everything they need (even turn it into a small hospital for minor surgery). Money on the table and on the same time, some kind of contract, where dying people are not kept until money is showed. Maybe also have a database there, where all inhabitants (Mexicans and foreigners) can have a file, with information about possible insurance, or other....
The Chapala clinic is also on a good location, close to the road to Guadalajara and has ambulances.

Hopefully, people will think seriously about this as this really is the only alternative. We can not (nor is it up to us) change the system, but maybe help find a better alternative.

The man had been lying there, wounded, in his house for about 12 to 15 hours, how can one possibly even try to explain that you keep him another 5 hours before taking him to a hospital ? Totallly unforgivable .... and stronger words come to my mind but since I understand that this is "the system" (oh, how I hate that word), more than the red cross people, I will not use stronger words.

"...in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride?" In any country? Not true. If you read better or are better informed, you will see this is not about paying for the Cruz Roja for an ambulance ride. It is about getting permission from the government to take him to a government hospital where the Mexican government will spends $1000s on him. You personally could have offered to take him to Hospital Civil in your car. That would bypass S.A.M.U.. He would have gotten there quicker. Of course, if he dies in your car, everyone will be telling you that you should have waited for an ambulance.

CheenaGringo wrote:Quote Dr. Sam: "The next time someone needs to be taken directly to Guadalajara, can we call you to be the person financially responsible?"

Exactly the type statement that causes one to wonder about you!

It happens to be the truth. Someone wants someone to do something, but ignoring the fact that for what they want, there are requirements. Someone can complain, but unless they are willing to be part of the solution, the reality and the problem will still exist, and no amount of complaining and blaiming will resolve the issue.

I also do not fully understand your need for agression towards those who tell the truth like it is. This is a serious thread. Your worthless agression does not help anyone here.

Dr. Thelin, I posed a question a few posts back regarding private hospitals. If those hospitals must accept patients for emergency care, how does that requirement work with the desire to have someone other than the patient accept financial responsibility, if there is nobody available?

I do not know what happened here, but I wrote 3 posts/answers that all disappeared.

cosalamx wrote:Dr. Thelin, I posed a question a few posts back regarding private hospitals. If those hospitals must accept patients for emergency care, how does that requirement work with the desire to have someone other than the patient accept financial responsibility, if there is nobody available?

Sorry, I did not see the question. I assume you mean in a case such as where the patient cannot interact, and no one is with the patient. This would require ambulance transport, thus the ambulance itself (drivers and paramedics) could possible be held responsible in some way for "dumping" the patient at the hospital that is not the base for the ambulance, although I have not seen such a case. This simply does not happen, and if it did, the operators of the ambulance would definately be questioned, and probably fired.

The law states this: Artículo 161. Los directores, administradores, médicos de sanatorios y clínicas o quienes los substituyan, incurrirán en responsabilidad cuando, sin justificación rechacen la admisión y tratamiento médico de urgencia a una persona. En este caso, la pena será de uno a cinco años de prisión y multa por el importe de veinte a ciento noventa y seis días de salario. However, what is considered justification is another question. Obviously, lack of ability to treat the patient (no operating room, MRI, etc). However, money would not likely be a just cause. If the patient somehow gets inside the doors of the hospital, they are obigated to treat the patient, and collect money after.

It seems that there are gray areas regarding private hospitals obligation to provide emergency treatment. If it can take 5 hours to receive a S.A.M.U. permit, then, in my opinion, there is a problem. If private hospitals MUST provide emergency treatment, that obligation can not be tied to ability to pay. So, how do ambulance personnel get caught in the middle, if do what they should do to try to save a life?

I am a huge supporter of the Cruz Roja, and every person that I know, who has gone to the Cruz Roja in Chapala has received great treatment, but I am curious about this situation regarding the obligation of hospitals.

elbelgicano wrote:I do not know what happened here, but I wrote 3 posts/answers that all disappeared.

Rony,

A hot topic like this will have many entries. Sometimes there are new entries while you are writing yours. After you hit the "send" button, this program will give you a notification that there are new entries. It then gives you the opportunity to either modify or save your entry. In either case, you must respond to the dialogue box. Look for the notification at the bottom of the page after you hit "send" and then scroll down the page to find the dialogue box.

elbelgicano wrote:I was at the memorial service yesterday and talked to people who were with him and, you can write as many articles as you like and try to paint as beautiful explanation as you want.... This is unforgivable and people should really think, not twice, but 10 times before contributing to the red cross !
You like to compare to ANY other country.... well, in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride ????

I am very sad and angry but apart from being critical, I also have a suggestion.
The Chapala clinic moved into brand new, clean and spatious premises a couple of months ago. They have wonderful doctors and nurses but no equipment. I am highly convinced that there is where the money should go, to help them buy everything they need (even turn it into a small hospital for minor surgery). Money on the table and on the same time, some kind of contract, where dying people are not kept until money is showed. Maybe also have a database there, where all inhabitants (Mexicans and foreigners) can have a file, with information about possible insurance, or other....
The Chapala clinic is also on a good location, close to the road to Guadalajara and has ambulances.

Hopefully, people will think seriously about this as this really is the only alternative. We can not (nor is it up to us) change the system, but maybe help find a better alternative.

The man had been lying there, wounded, in his house for about 12 to 15 hours, how can one possibly even try to explain that you keep him another 5 hours before taking him to a hospital ? Totallly unforgivable .... and stronger words come to my mind but since I understand that this is "the system" (oh, how I hate that word), more than the red cross people, I will not use stronger words.

Agree, agree, agree, something drastic needs to change and get rid of SAMU. Another government buraucracy like so many in the US. Money has nothing to do with saving lives!!! If someones medical bill doesn't get paid, SO WHAT, hospitals are making a fortune and can write it off.

Smartalex wrote:

elbelgicano wrote:I do not know what happened here, but I wrote 3 posts/answers that all disappeared.

Rony,

A hot topic like this will have many entries. Sometimes there are new entries while you are writing yours. After you hit the "send" button, this program will give you a notification that there are new entries. It then gives you the opportunity to either modify or save your entry. In either case, you must respond to the dialogue box. Look for the notification at the bottom of the page after you hit "send" and then scroll down the page to find the dialogue box.

Thks, I will pay better attention next time. Bye !

The problem is that the ambulances would be operating in a non-approved way. They would only do this a few times before rich hospital owners would be on top of them. They would lose the ambulance permits.

That said, this is Mexico, and there are often other "underground" options. However, I would never post them here.

What is possible is with enough cooperation, an agreement could could be made with a private hospital in Guadalajara. However, everyone would have to work together on that.

cosalamx wrote:It seems that there are gray areas regarding private hospitals obligation to provide emergency treatment. If it can take 5 hours to receive a S.A.M.U. permit, then, in my opinion, there is a problem. If private hospitals MUST provide emergency treatment, that obligation can not be tied to ability to pay. So, how do ambulance personnel get caught in the middle, if do what they should do to try to save a life?

I am a huge supporter of the Cruz Roja, and every person that I know, who has gone to the Cruz Roja in Chapala has received great treatment, but I am curious about this situation regarding the obligation of hospitals.

Doctor, instead of going on the defensive, using your tone, you emphasizing (in your sarcastic question) the financial criteria for saving someone,.... and hiding behind rules and systems, try thinking a little out of the box.

In the case of the very badly injured gentleman, it would have taken you 5 minutes to google (social media, forums like this that you so seem to be busy in using) instead of 5 hours, to find more info on him. We, expats, do not have the same strong social family structure here as the Mexicans do but we are easy enough to find on the computer. Or.... a filing system where everybody can register basic info on his/her insurance, contact person,....

While I am sure that a lot of people at the Red Cross are doing a fabulous job, I am sure that in this case (and probably many other) with a little extra effort, the man just might have been saved, but we will never know for sure.
To give you an example,.... once (only) a red cross employee came to me about an unknown American (in grave condition as well) at the red cross. I went on line and within a very short time, extra help was available for him.
Where were you all this time ?? Did I miss one of your posts here ??

In meanwhile, if it happens to me, I will be more than happy to be transported by car DIRECTLY to Guad. Instead of having to listen (while badly injured in come) to people discussing the price of my life, let me die in the car. I am not sure that I would like to be treated by you anyway. Your posts say more about you than you think.

I have more to say about the possibilities of having a decent little hospital, such as more employment and making this area even more attractive as a retirement haven (and the Chapala clinic that does have ambulances) but will do it next time ( I lost it while posting, because of my doing).

This whole system (even if it is not completely the red cross's fault) is wrong, is costing people's lifes and just maybe, some grandchildren might still have had a granddaddy. Have the decency and the intelligence to at least say, that you will investigate it, inform people about it and fix where you can. That would be "better class" and the level of a real respectful doctor.

I wish you all a great Sunday and stay safe.

joec wrote:

elbelgicano wrote:I was at the memorial service yesterday and talked to people who were with him and, you can write as many articles as you like and try to paint as beautiful explanation as you want.... This is unforgivable and people should really think, not twice, but 10 times before contributing to the red cross !
You like to compare to ANY other country.... well, in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride ????

I am very sad and angry but apart from being critical, I also have a suggestion.
The Chapala clinic moved into brand new, clean and spatious premises a couple of months ago. They have wonderful doctors and nurses but no equipment. I am highly convinced that there is where the money should go, to help them buy everything they need (even turn it into a small hospital for minor surgery). Money on the table and on the same time, some kind of contract, where dying people are not kept until money is showed. Maybe also have a database there, where all inhabitants (Mexicans and foreigners) can have a file, with information about possible insurance, or other....
The Chapala clinic is also on a good location, close to the road to Guadalajara and has ambulances.

Hopefully, people will think seriously about this as this really is the only alternative. We can not (nor is it up to us) change the system, but maybe help find a better alternative.

The man had been lying there, wounded, in his house for about 12 to 15 hours, how can one possibly even try to explain that you keep him another 5 hours before taking him to a hospital ? Totallly unforgivable .... and stronger words come to my mind but since I understand that this is "the system" (oh, how I hate that word), more than the red cross people, I will not use stronger words.

Agree, agree, agree, something drastic needs to change and get rid of SAMU. Another government buraucracy like so many in the US. Money has nothing to do with saving lives!!! If someones medical bill doesn't get paid, SO WHAT, hospitals are making a fortune and can write it off.

If you eliminate SAMU, the system will fall. While I estimate that 60% to 90% of the foreign population can and will pay, more than 99.5% of the patients are poor Mexicans who cannot and will not pay. If every taco (food) poisoning, nose bleed, headache, etc. gets a ride in the big white taxi with the pretty lights on top, I will assure you more people with real problems will die from an overloaded system.

Money has everything to do with saving lives. While I would love to believe that saving lives could be done for free, and I have had the luxury of working for both the Mexican government and the Cruz Roja spending other people's money to save lives, the reality is that there has been a great deal of money involved.

Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:

joec wrote:

elbelgicano wrote:I was at the memorial service yesterday and talked to people who were with him and, you can write as many articles as you like and try to paint as beautiful explanation as you want.... This is unforgivable and people should really think, not twice, but 10 times before contributing to the red cross !
You like to compare to ANY other country.... well, in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride ????

I am very sad and angry but apart from being critical, I also have a suggestion.
The Chapala clinic moved into brand new, clean and spatious premises a couple of months ago. They have wonderful doctors and nurses but no equipment. I am highly convinced that there is where the money should go, to help them buy everything they need (even turn it into a small hospital for minor surgery). Money on the table and on the same time, some kind of contract, where dying people are not kept until money is showed. Maybe also have a database there, where all inhabitants (Mexicans and foreigners) can have a file, with information about possible insurance, or other....
The Chapala clinic is also on a good location, close to the road to Guadalajara and has ambulances.

Hopefully, people will think seriously about this as this really is the only alternative. We can not (nor is it up to us) change the system, but maybe help find a better alternative.

The man had been lying there, wounded, in his house for about 12 to 15 hours, how can one possibly even try to explain that you keep him another 5 hours before taking him to a hospital ? Totallly unforgivable .... and stronger words come to my mind but since I understand that this is "the system" (oh, how I hate that word), more than the red cross people, I will not use stronger words.

Agree, agree, agree, something drastic needs to change and get rid of SAMU. Another government buraucracy like so many in the US. Money has nothing to do with saving lives!!! If someones medical bill doesn't get paid, SO WHAT, hospitals are making a fortune and can write it off.

If you eliminate SAMU, the system will fall. While I estimate that 60% to 90% of the foreign population can and will pay, more than 99.5% of the patients are poor Mexicans who cannot and will not pay. If every taco (food) poisoning, nose bleed, headache, etc. gets a ride in the big white taxi with the pretty lights on top, I will assure you more people with real problems will die from an overloaded system.

Money has everything to do with saving lives. While I would love to believe that saving lives could be done for free, and I have had the luxury of working for both the Mexican government and the Cruz Roja spending other people's money to save lives, the reality is that there has been a great deal of money involved.

Wasn't it President's Fox goal to have free health care (by starting up Seguro Popular about 10 years ago) for all poor Mexicans ?? No good in having that if people can not get there (hospital) alive.

elbelgicano wrote:Doctor, instead of going on the defensive, using your tone, you emphasizing (in your sarcastic question) the financial criteria for saving someone,.... and hiding behind rules and systems, try thinking a little out of the box.

In the case of the very badly injured gentleman, it would have taken you 5 minutes to google (social media, forums like this that you so seem to be busy in using) instead of 5 hours, to find more info on him. We, expats, do not have the same strong social family structure here as the Mexicans do but we are easy enough to find on the computer. Or.... a filing system where everybody can register basic info on his/her insurance, contact person,....

While I am sure that a lot of people at the Red Cross are doing a fabulous job, I am sure that in this case (and probably many other) with a little extra effort, the man just might have been saved, but we will never know for sure.
To give you an example,.... once (only) a red cross employee came to me about an unknown American (in grave condition as well) at the red cross. I went on line and within a very short time, extra help was available for him.
Where were you all this time ?? Did I miss one of your posts here ??

In meanwhile, if it happens to me, I will be more than happy to be transported by car DIRECTLY to Guad. Instead of having to listen (while badly injured in come) to people discussing the price of my life, let me die in the car. I am not sure that I would like to be treated by you anyway. Your posts say more about you than you think.

I have more to say about the possibilities of having a decent little hospital, such as more employment and making this area even more attractive as a retirement haven (and the Chapala clinic that does have ambulances) but will do it next time ( I lost it while posting, because of my doing).

This whole system (even if it is not completely the red cross's fault) is wrong, is costing people's lifes and just maybe, some grandchildren might still have had a granddaddy. Have the decency and the intelligence to at least say, that you will investigate it, inform people about it and fix where you can. That would be "better class" and the level of a real respectful doctor.

I wish you all a great Sunday and stay safe.

The system is a "poor" system in that it does not have the money to do any better. There are ways around the system by having a general back-up fund, agreements with at least one hospital, and some form of rapid access to information on the patient. If you say you would prefer to be taken by car, that is very valuable information. If you would be willing to have a medical record on file, and have your personal information and wishes on file, that would help a great deal. The Cruz Roja does not have the time or resorces to build a database, but the service could exist. It would need more than 1 person to join, and it would have to have a fee for creating, keeping, and providing the information in the time of an emergency. The foreign population could create a replacement (to them) for SAMU. However, it would require at least 90% participation.

As for the social networks, that can sometimes work. I was not working the day of the incident you mention, but I have tried it on several occasions with no luck. One time it was a Vietnam Marine veteran who died of a cronic illness. SAMU was called, but cronic illnesses are last on the list. There was no family here, and no friends came. After he died, I still tried to find family or friends. No one in the USA with that same last name on Facebook responded. Google showed nothing. The VA had no current information. Instead of an honorable burrial, he was burried in a common grave for unclaimed bodies. If there is no information, nothing can be done. Like I wrote before, everyone needs a plan. It also needs to be available in an emergency.

I'm afraid that the doctor is correct in making the connection between money and saving lives. Health care is expensive, all the way from picking up the patient to treating severe trauma cases. I am informed that the IMSS system is nearly broke. Don't know about Seguro Popular. It's worth while to note that, after a certain age, people can't get private health insurance even if they can pay for it. That is the time they need it the most, sad to say.

It would make sense to have your emergency information available in your home or your wallet. Insurance, if any, name of your doctor and person to notify of your emergency. If possible. That's often the rub. The bad guy who stabs you will probably steal your wallet, too.

Do you remember when this was?

espíritu del lago wrote:Do you remember when this was?

I wrote the VA at the end of June 2012 regarding his death, so I think a few weeks before that is whe he died and I was searching online. At that time I had not yet met the people at the Legion who might have known him.

elbelgicano wrote:

Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:

joec wrote:

elbelgicano wrote:I was at the memorial service yesterday and talked to people who were with him and, you can write as many articles as you like and try to paint as beautiful explanation as you want.... This is unforgivable and people should really think, not twice, but 10 times before contributing to the red cross !
You like to compare to ANY other country.... well, in any country you call an ambulance and are taken to the hospital SOON, and no discussion about the bill. A human life equals the price of an ambulance ride ????

I am very sad and angry but apart from being critical, I also have a suggestion.
The Chapala clinic moved into brand new, clean and spatious premises a couple of months ago. They have wonderful doctors and nurses but no equipment. I am highly convinced that there is where the money should go, to help them buy everything they need (even turn it into a small hospital for minor surgery). Money on the table and on the same time, some kind of contract, where dying people are not kept until money is showed. Maybe also have a database there, where all inhabitants (Mexicans and foreigners) can have a file, with information about possible insurance, or other....
The Chapala clinic is also on a good location, close to the road to Guadalajara and has ambulances.

Hopefully, people will think seriously about this as this really is the only alternative. We can not (nor is it up to us) change the system, but maybe help find a better alternative.

The man had been lying there, wounded, in his house for about 12 to 15 hours, how can one possibly even try to explain that you keep him another 5 hours before taking him to a hospital ? Totallly unforgivable .... and stronger words come to my mind but since I understand that this is "the system" (oh, how I hate that word), more than the red cross people, I will not use stronger words.

Agree, agree, agree, something drastic needs to change and get rid of SAMU. Another government buraucracy like so many in the US. Money has nothing to do with saving lives!!! If someones medical bill doesn't get paid, SO WHAT, hospitals are making a fortune and can write it off.

If you eliminate SAMU, the system will fall. While I estimate that 60% to 90% of the foreign population can and will pay, more than 99.5% of the patients are poor Mexicans who cannot and will not pay. If every taco (food) poisoning, nose bleed, headache, etc. gets a ride in the big white taxi with the pretty lights on top, I will assure you more people with real problems will die from an overloaded system.

Money has everything to do with saving lives. While I would love to believe that saving lives could be done for free, and I have had the luxury of working for both the Mexican government and the Cruz Roja spending other people's money to save lives, the reality is that there has been a great deal of money involved.

Wasn't it President's Fox goal to have free health care (by starting up Seguro Popular about 10 years ago) for all poor Mexicans ?? No good in having that if people can not get there (hospital) alive.

Yes, it was the PRI and Fox. The health care exists, but the speed does not. Seguro Popular pays for many services and medicacions that many could not afford. However, it is a cattle call with huge lines and waits.

Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:

espíritu del lago wrote:Do you remember when this was?

I wrote the VA at the end of June 2012 regarding his death, so I think a few weeks before that is whe he died and I was searching online. At that time I had not yet met the people at the Legion who might have known him.

If anyone hears anything else, I would be interested in knowing who he was.

Thank you.

espíritu del lago wrote:If anyone hears anything else, I would be interested in knowing who he was.

Thank you.

I sent you an IM.