Re: Incident in Riberas

by CheenaGringo Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:45 pm

So John, at age 68: are you the picture of health?

by ferret Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:05 pm

I said "Personally, at 87 years of age"...I did NOT say "nobody should live beyond 87". It's a personal decision and depends on your personal health both mentally and physically. But you HAVE to let people know in an obvious manner. Maybe tattoing "Do Not Resusitate" on my chest would be more discreet but more in the face of someone attempting CPR.
I have uncles and aunts who lived well into their nineties with no ailments who died peacefully in their sleep. My mum, the youngest in the family, died of Alzheimers at 82. She was amazingly physically fit and probably hadn't seen a Doctor in the previous 25 years before diagnosis. The Alzheimers doesn't run in the family but I attribute it to repeated head blows from the abuse by my father...think boxers/football players/hockey players. She knew, for a while, what was happening and gave me her directive accordingly while she could. That's all any of us can do.

by gringal Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:24 pm

Yes, I think a tatoo on the chest should do the job, unless they didn't disrobe you for the occasion. Those tats hurt, though.

You never know which part of the gene pool you were dipped in. Bummer, sometimes. Even when you give a directive to a close relative, the doctors still want to hook you up to a machine to keep you "alive". Some "alive", eh?

by joec Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:17 pm

CheenaGringo wrote:So John, at age 68: are you the picture of health?

Yes, except for a hip implant and Epilepsy controlled with medication. And how is your health truthfully?

Does having a hip implant and Epilepsy not make me the picture of health?

A hip implant is a total nothing operation. Epilepsy controlled by medication is a moot point.

by espíritu del lago Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:40 pm

How about the long term side effects: These are just the mental side effects.
http://www.eqi.org.au/newsletter/glossary.html

Common types of behaviour problems

Difficulty with attention and concentration

Motor hyperactivity

Anxiety

Irritability

Aggressive verbal or physical behaviour

Poor social skills

Impulsiveness

Lack of motivation and energy

Mood swings

Depression

Inability to plan and organise behaviour

by Parker Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:45 pm

gringal wrote:
Yes, I think a tatoo on the chest should do the job, unless they didn't disrobe you for the occasion. Those tats hurt, though.

You never know which part of the gene pool you were dipped in. Bummer, sometimes. Even when you give a directive to a close relative, the doctors still want to hook you up to a machine to keep you "alive". Some "alive", eh?

Once again “Just follow the money”!!! Have you noticed the “Gleam” in the Doctors eyes when they realize you have reliable private insurance? They even bring fruit baskets. Very Happy

by joec Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:53 pm

espíritu del lago wrote:How about the long term side effects: These are just the mental side effects.
http://www.eqi.org.au/newsletter/glossary.html

Common types of behaviour problems

Difficulty with attention and concentration - most old farts on this forum

Motor hyperactivity

Anxiety - most everyone on this forum

Irritability - most old farts on this forum

Aggressive verbal or physical behaviour - most everyone on this forum

Poor social skills - most everyone on this forum

Impulsiveness

Lack of motivation and energy - all the drinkers

Mood swings - many on here

Depression - anyone in the world

Inability to plan and organise behaviour - I can usually plan anything around any of you.

Sounds like everyone on this forum has Epilepsy. Where did you get this BS? It doesn't apply to me. Further there is no medical link from Doctor's and Hospitals. And guess what birdbrain, people can have Epilepsy controlled with medication with NONE of these effects. Just ask my neighbors, one of them posts here.

AND I DON'T APPRECIATE YOUR POST BECAUSE YOU'RE INHUMAN AND KNOW NOTHING ABOUT EPILEPSY.

by viajero Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:04 pm

[quote="joec"]
0

by CheenaGringo Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting John: "And how is your health truthfully?"

I really cannot say since I haven't had a reason to visit a doctor in 15 to 20 years.

by joec Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:11 pm

CheenaGringo wrote:Quoting John: "And how is your health truthfully?"

I really cannot say since I haven't had a reason to visit a doctor in 15 to 20 years.

Ever hear of yearly physicals? Only someone as stupid as you would admit to that. You probably have cancer and don't know it.

by E-raq Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:38 pm

CheenaGringo wrote:........"there is nothing that would surprise the average Mexican."

Probably so very true! While the average Gringo has cared to brag about the accessibility of quality medical care in Guadalajara, I would guess that the complications expressed in this incident raises details that many haven't considered?

I wouldn't use Seguro popular for anything, not even a hangnail, however quality medical care is available here at the new IMSS hospital in Tlajomulco. I have had personal experience there and am still alive and walking today due to my surgeon who I would say was a genius at what he does.

Now as a microbiologist I wouldn't stay in any IMSS hospital, however I am damned picky. So most people would find it acceptable.

by gringal Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:01 pm

I suspect that if all those bargain hunting folks who are hot to get on the rolls of Seguro Popular actually inspected the facility and realized what would happen if they were in there (including needed someone to care for them and sleep on the floor) they might consider other options. I've heard you need a helper at IMSS, also.........and they must be of the same sex, which eliminates husbands and wives. Izzat so?

by joec Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:10 pm

E-raq wrote:
CheenaGringo wrote:........"there is nothing that would surprise the average Mexican."

Probably so very true! While the average Gringo has cared to brag about the accessibility of quality medical care in Guadalajara, I would guess that the complications expressed in this incident raises details that many haven't considered?

I wouldn't use Seguro popular for anything, not even a hangnail, however quality medical care is available here at the new IMSS hospital in Tlajomulco. I have had personal experience there and am still alive and walking today due to my surgeon who I would say was a genius at what he does.

Now as a microbiologist I wouldn't stay in any IMSS hospital, however I am damned picky. So most people would find it acceptable.

There are many opinions. My best friends maid would violently disagree with you and so would my friend after her maid who was pregnant went to that facility. She was nearly ready to have the baby and was told there was no Doctor there. They would contact him. They told her to go sit down. Her water brioke about 4 hours later and she nearly had the baby on the floor until the Doctor who had been called showed up 4 hours late.

IMSS is might be just OK for poor Mexicans who cannot afford anything else, but it's not so great for all the Gringos.

by E-raq Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:39 pm

gringal wrote:I suspect that if all those bargain hunting folks who are hot to get on the rolls of Seguro Popular actually inspected the facility and realized what would happen if they were in there (including needed someone to care for them and sleep on the floor) they might consider other options. I've heard you need a helper at IMSS, also.........and they must be of the same sex, which eliminates husbands and wives. Izzat so?

Yes, you do need a helper. The food is inedible, you also need a very large bottle of disinfectant. Personally, if forced to stay there, I signed myself out the day after surgery, I'd hire a private nurse.

The Mexicans seem to have entire families with them, they're lucky. Nothing bad will happen to them. I had a lot of help from the Mexicans, first they tried not to admit me due to some idiot on the admitting desk. Problem solved by a lovely lady who grabbed the admitting room doc and explained that i was about to die or lose my leg.
Getting out was easier. I made friends with the husband of a patient in the next cubicle. He helped my husband, by banging on the door of the doctors lounge, there were 2 for over 90 patients. Words were exchanged and they brought me the papers pretty pronto stating that i was signing myself out under my own care.

by hkrause Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:57 pm

I have a paper carried in my billfold with emergency info on it... Contact, list of medications I take and for what, allergies, etc. This was for use in the US, where somebody might have needed basic info quickly in an emergency situation. When I moved here, I added Spanish translations, but that's just from Google Translate (probably not the best option, but at least it's something). This would be useful for an accident, heart attack or the like, but not if something happened while I'm being robbed where my purse was taken. It's nearly impossible to cover all the bases.

Another avenue is that our housing development is putting together a database of info on emergency contacts in case of health issues or death, so somebody would know who to get in touch with. With comments from this thread, I might suggest they also include info on insurance and any other medical directive, such as having a credit card to cover expenses, or wanting to be taken to a private hospital, or DNR orders, etc.

I agree that a general database of some sort with basic emergency contact info would be a great resource for Cruz Roja and any other medical facility that might need it. Maybe the database could assign an ID number that could be put on a bracelet or neck chain, attached to key chain, hung in a car, etc. The tag could include a web URL with instructions in English and Spanish. People could help support the project by paying a fee to be listed and maybe something per tag? Medical facilities in the area could have access to look up somebody's info based on their ID number.

I dunno... I'm brainstorming here. This seems like a good project to consider and see what could be done. Maybe it deserves a separate thread for discussion of how this might become a reality (rather than being lost in this thread)? Anybody else with techie ability, who might comment on what it would take to create and maintain this, and keep the info private?

Heather

by Jim W Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:46 pm

Heather, start a new thread under Medical Dental....just a suggestion, otherwise your valid points may be lost in this dead thread! Surte

by CheenaGringo Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:49 pm

Careful Jim, your writing style is approaching the bossy level of another prolific poster.

by Jim W Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:55 pm

CheenaGringo wrote:Careful Jim, your writing style is approaching the bossy level of another prolific poster.

Fixed it!

by Dr. Sam Thelin Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:19 pm

Carry Bean wrote:
Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:I would hope no one would do CPR on someone having a stroke (stroke = brain, CPR = Heart).

Carry Bean wrote:If I'm 87 & have a massive stroke what is the point of doing CPR? So I can be a vegetable for a couple of years costing a fortune with NO quality of life?

Glad I'm here in Mexico & not there if that should happen to me.

There was no doctor there to diagnose, smartass. The whole brouhaha was over the nurse's refusal to follow the orders of the 911 operator.

Millions of regular people take CPR classes. The basics start with checking their breathing and pulse. You do not have to be a doctor to do that. In fact, the odds of a doctor being with you when you need CPR outside of a hospital are close to zero. If someone saves your life with CPR, it will likely be a regular stranger or family member, not a doctor, nurse, or paramedic.

by Dr. Sam Thelin Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:37 pm

hkrause wrote:I have a paper carried in my billfold with emergency info on it... Contact, list of medications I take and for what, allergies, etc. This was for use in the US, where somebody might have needed basic info quickly in an emergency situation. When I moved here, I added Spanish translations, but that's just from Google Translate (probably not the best option, but at least it's something). This would be useful for an accident, heart attack or the like, but not if something happened while I'm being robbed where my purse was taken. It's nearly impossible to cover all the bases.

Another avenue is that our housing development is putting together a database of info on emergency contacts in case of health issues or death, so somebody would know who to get in touch with. With comments from this thread, I might suggest they also include info on insurance and any other medical directive, such as having a credit card to cover expenses, or wanting to be taken to a private hospital, or DNR orders, etc.

I agree that a general database of some sort with basic emergency contact info would be a great resource for Cruz Roja and any other medical facility that might need it. Maybe the database could assign an ID number that could be put on a bracelet or neck chain, attached to key chain, hung in a car, etc. The tag could include a web URL with instructions in English and Spanish. People could help support the project by paying a fee to be listed and maybe something per tag? Medical facilities in the area could have access to look up somebody's info based on their ID number.

I dunno... I'm brainstorming here. This seems like a good project to consider and see what could be done. Maybe it deserves a separate thread for discussion of how this might become a reality (rather than being lost in this thread)? Anybody else with techie ability, who might comment on what it would take to create and maintain this, and keep the info private?

Heather

That is a very good idea, and with only a number as the ID, it will work. A "cheap" bracelet would work (nothing anyone would want to steal), or even a UV tattoo http://londonstreetartdesign.blogspot.mx/2012/08/uv-tattoo-art.html
I know two optionss for software that will have all the information organized. I just do not have time to do it at the moment. Maybe at the end of the month I can start on it.

The wallet thing is good way for now. It is the first place we look when there is no other information. Glove box, etc. not good.

by ferret Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:44 pm

Dr. Thelin, I think she was referring to your comment...

"I hope no one would do CPR on someone having a stroke"

As you have stated, many people know how to do CPR...what we don't know is whether the person has collapsed and is unconscious and not breathing from a heart attack or a stroke. Should CPR be done anyway?
(provided that there is not a "Do not Resusitate" tattoo on their chest)

The info in the wallet and on the fridge could be done in a brilliantly coloured paper to draw the eye to it.

by Dr. Sam Thelin Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:34 am

ferret wrote:Dr. Thelin, I think she was referring to your comment...
"I hope no one would do CPR on someone having a stroke"

As you have stated, many people know how to do CPR...what we don't know is whether the person has collapsed and is unconscious and not breathing from a heart attack or a stroke. Should CPR be done anyway?
(provided that there is not a "Do not Resusitate" tattoo on their chest)

The info in the wallet and on the fridge could be done in a brilliantly coloured paper to draw the eye to it.

For the average person, per the new AHA guidlines, you would do compressions only. You would only do compressions if there is no pulse. You would check the pulse first. No compressions would be done on a person with a pulse.

Lack of breathing would usually be from one of four things in an older adult: (A) blocked airway (food?), (B) a stroke affecting the brain stem, (C) respiratory failure due to cardiac failure, or they are (D) dead.
(A) requires knowledge or history of the event, and some medical/first aid skill to treat.
(B),(C), and (D)* without pulse would require CPR. (D) is not as easy as it seems, and unless the person looks very dead, and without an EKG, they may not actually be "too" dead. However, the AHA does not expect the average person to work with the respiratory aspect. You would first check the pulse. If there is a pulse, and breathing (as in most strokes), no CPR would be done.

If they fell to the floor (as in the case of the 87-year-old woman), and stopped breathing due to a stroke (which would not be known at the time), they would most likely still have a pulse. (The person would continue to have a pulse until there was no more oxygen for the heart due to lack of breathing). You would NOT do chest compressions (because the heart is still beating). You would give breaths to the patient if you were knowledgable in doing so. You would switch to complete CPR if the patient stopped having a pulse.

You would treat them based on lack of pulse and breathing, regardless of stroke or heart attack if the signs were the same. You have no way of knowing until afterward the cause. The person not breathing from a stroke would not likely recover from your efforts, but you would do CPR . However, at first, heart attack would usually stop the heart before affecting breathing (no pulse, but breathing). A stroke affecting breathing will not usually affect the heart until a few minutes later (pulse, but no breathing). Assuming you know or remember nothing, give compresions for anyone without a pulse. Give breaths for anyone not breathing. Give CPR for those with neither, if you know how.

by ferret Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:50 am

Thank you.

by Dr. Sam Thelin Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:22 am

Answer to a few questions:

I posted earlier about the law stating that it was illegal to reject emergency patients, even private hospitals. Then began the questions about taking a patient by ambulance to a private hospital without money to pay, no one financially responsible, SAMU, etc.

I had a long talk today with an agent of the Ministerio Publico who has worked years with medical cases. Here is what I learned.

In a life-threatening emergency, the nearest hospital must accept you. Not to treat you, but to stabilize you (save your life).

Example 1: If you have a heart attack in front of San Javier, they must accept you and stabilize you. When you are stable, S.A.M.U. will be called and you will be taken to a public hospital for more treatment.

Example 2: If you are in any ambulance, and become unstable, the ambulance can stop at the closest hospital to stabilize you (public, private, IMSS, etc), then call S.A.M.U. to continue treatment.

Example 3: You feel like you are having a heart attack, and could make it to several hospitals, but you walk in to San Javier (an expensive private hospital), and you ask them to treat you. You do not have the $20,000 that it will cost. That would be considered fraud.

by cosalamx Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:30 am

Does the Cruz Roja have the ability to stabilize a patient in a life threatening condition, to the same extent as a private hospital would? If so, then having the patient at the Cruz Roja waiting for S.A.M.U. permission would be the same as transporting to a private hospital then have the patient waiting there, except for the necessity for two ambulance trips instead of one. It seems that some sort of registry, even fee-based if need be, would be a valuable resource. Perhaps this could generate some needed funds for the Cruz Roja?

Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:Answer to a few questions:I posted earlier about the law stating that it was illegal to reject emergency patients, even private hospitals. Then began the questions about taking a patient by ambulance to a private hospital without money to pay, no one financially responsible, SAMU, etc.

I had a long talk today with an agent of the Ministerio Publico who has worked years with medical cases. Here is what I learned.

In a life-threatening emergency, the nearest hospital must accept you. Not to treat you, but to stabilize you (save your life).

Example 1: If you have a heart attack in front of San Javier, they must accept you and stabilize you. When you are stable, S.A.M.U. will be called and you will be taken to a public hospital for more treatment.

Example 2: If you are in any ambulance, and become unstable, the ambulance can stop at the closest hospital to stabilize you (public, private, IMSS, etc), then call S.A.M.U. to continue treatment.

Example 3: You feel like you are having a heart attack, and could make it to several hospitals, but you walk in to San Javier (an expensive private hospital), and you ask them to treat you. You do not have the $20,000 that it will cost. That would be considered fraud.

by Dr. Sam Thelin Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:13 pm

That would depend on the specific situation. No one can say ahead of time.

Can it stabilize some of them. Yes.
Can it stabilize most of them. Probably.
Can it stabilize all of them. No

I have seen some that would have died if the time was spent taking them to Guadalajara.

Taking the ambulance to the closest "hospital", bypassing the Cruz Roja, trying to get free higher level hospital stabilization will not work. Taking them in your car might. However, that is accepting a lot of liability.

cosalamx wrote:Does the Cruz Roja have the ability to stabilize a patient in a life threatening condition, to the same extent as a private hospital would? If so, then having the patient at the Cruz Roja waiting for S.A.M.U. permission would be the same as transporting to a private hospital then have the patient waiting there, except for the necessity for two ambulance trips instead of one. It seems that some sort of registry, even fee-based if need be, would be a valuable resource. Perhaps this could generate some needed funds for the Cruz Roja?

Dr. Sam Thelin wrote:Answer to a few questions:I posted earlier about the law stating that it was illegal to reject emergency patients, even private hospitals. Then began the questions about taking a patient by ambulance to a private hospital without money to pay, no one financially responsible, SAMU, etc.

I had a long talk today with an agent of the Ministerio Publico who has worked years with medical cases. Here is what I learned.

In a life-threatening emergency, the nearest hospital must accept you. Not to treat you, but to stabilize you (save your life).

Example 1: If you have a heart attack in front of San Javier, they must accept you and stabilize you. When you are stable, S.A.M.U. will be called and you will be taken to a public hospital for more treatment.

Example 2: If you are in any ambulance, and become unstable, the ambulance can stop at the closest hospital to stabilize you (public, private, IMSS, etc), then call S.A.M.U. to continue treatment.

Example 3: You feel like you are having a heart attack, and could make it to several hospitals, but you walk in to San Javier (an expensive private hospital), and you ask them to treat you. You do not have the $20,000 that it will cost. That would be considered fraud.

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