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Post by BisbeeGal Thu May 14, 2020 12:16 pm

In most instances, autopsies would not be required under US law.  And with the rush to bury/cremate the dead, I wonder if many were done.

I hope so as the dead may lead us in the right direction for a treatment.

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Post by Trailrunner Thu May 14, 2020 12:24 pm

Jreboll wrote:This goes well with observations that oxygen saturation’s don’t jive with patient’s observed clinical behavior. Could be sonething like Raynaud’s disease where the fingers turn purple but the patient is ok.  Nobody mentions if o2 sats are taken at face value or blood gasses are drawn

Interesting, huh Jreboll?!? No, nothing about 02 sats or gases but it totally makes sense to me. Medically. It will be interesting now to see what different countries do with this information going forward.

Loved the Mexican home remedy that worked!
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Post by mudgirl Thu May 14, 2020 12:29 pm

That would then explain the odd symptom they've found that is being called COVID toes, where the patient develops a blue or reddish discoloration on their toes. It can also turn into an ulcerating sore, just like a diabetic gets from poor circulation. Has been seen most often in children, with no other symptoms, but test positive for COVID.

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Post by ferret Thu May 14, 2020 12:34 pm

[quote="Trailrunner"

Loved the Mexican home remedy that worked! [/quote]

So did I. They may have gotten lucky or be onto something. Time will tell.
I never did get an answer to my low dose aspirin question many moons ago on a different thread but I'm glad I'm taking it.
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Post by CanuckBob Thu May 14, 2020 12:38 pm

I take anti inflammatory for arthritis so should be good to go.........lol.

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Post by CanuckBob Thu May 14, 2020 3:52 pm

Trailrunner wrote:Check this out!  It's DIC!

May 9, 2020
Autopsies Prove that COVID-19 is a Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (Pulmonary Thrombosis)
It is now clear that the whole world has been attacking the so-called Coronavirus Pandemic wrongly due to a serious pathophysiological diagnosis error.
According to valuable information from Italian pathologists, ventilators and intensive care units were never needed.
Autopsies performed by the Italian pathologists have shown that it is not pneumonia but it is Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (Thrombosis) which ought to be fought with antibiotics, antivirals, anti-inflammatories and anticoagulants.
If this is true for all cases, that means the whole world is about to resolve this novel pandemic earlier than expected.
However, protocols are currently being changed in Italy who have been adversely affected by this pandemic.
The impressive case of a Mexican family in the United States who claimed they were cured with a home remedy was documented: three 500 mg aspirins dissolved in lemon juice boiled with honey, taken hot. The next day they woke up as if nothing had happened to them! Well, the scientific information that follows proves they are right!
This information was released by a medical researcher from Italy:
“Thanks to 50 autopsies performed on patients who died of COVID-19, Italian pathologists have discovered that IT IS NOT PNEUMONIA, strictly speaking because the virus does not only kill pneumocytes of this type but uses an inflammatory storm to create an endothelial vascular thrombosis.”
In disseminated intravascular coagulation, the lung is the most affected because it is the most inflamed, but there is also a heart attack, stroke and many other thromboembolic diseases.
In fact, the protocols left antiviral therapies useless and focused on anti-inflammatory and anti-clotting therapies. These therapies should be done immediately, even at home, in which the treatment of patients responds very well.
If the Chinese had denounced it, they would have invested in-home therapy, not intensive care! So, the way to fight it is with antibiotics, anti-inflammatories and anticoagulants.
An Italian pathologist reports that the hospital in Bergamo did a total of 50 autopsies and one in Milan, 20, that is, the Italian series is the highest in the world, the Chinese did only 3, which seems to fully confirm the information.
In a nutshell, the disease is determined by disseminated intravascular coagulation triggered by the virus; therefore, it is not pneumonia but pulmonary thrombosis, a major diagnostic error.
Some world leaders doubled the number of resuscitation places in the ICU, with unnecessary exorbitant costs.
According to the Italian pathologist, treatment in ICUs is useless if thromboembolism is not resolved first. “If we ventilate a lung where blood does not circulate, it is useless, in fact, nine (9) patients out of ten (10) will die because the problem is cardiovascular, not respiratory.”
“It is venous micro thrombosis, not pneumonia, that determines mortality.”
According to the literature, inflammation induces thrombosis through a complex but well-known pathophysiological mechanism.
Unfortunately, what the scientific literature said, especially Chinese until mid-March was that anti-inflammatory drugs should not be used.
Now, the therapy being used in Italy is with anti-inflammatories and antibiotics, as in influenza, and the number of hospitalized patients has been reduced.
He also discovered that many deaths, even in their 40s, had a history of fever for 10 to 15 days, which were not treated properly.
The inflammation does a great deal of tissue damage and creates ground for thrombus formation. However, the main problem is not the virus, but the immune hyper reaction that destroys the cell where the virus is installed.
In fact, patients with rheumatoid arthritis have never needed to be admitted to the ICU because they are on corticosteroid therapy, which is a great anti-inflammatory.
With this important discovery, it is possible to return to normal life and open closed deals due to the quarantine, though not immediately, but with time.
Kindly share so that the health authorities of each country can make their respective analysis of this information, prevent further deaths and redirect investments appropriately; the vaccine may come later.
Link:  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/autopsies-prove-covid-19-disseminated-intravascular-coagulation-coté?fbclid=IwAR0Rtpd2Ehv6_poUHv8Hp5jEmrkt7G5EMOrU92YQOvW5i0vQ91ZcLpmeRj0
People are saying this is fake news on Facebook.

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Post by Trailrunner Thu May 14, 2020 4:49 pm

Why?
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Post by CanuckBob Thu May 14, 2020 5:00 pm

There is a "debunking site" saying its BS. If true we will hear a lot about i it on every news station out there I imagine. Also the link to the page has been removed. Hopefully it has some merit. If you find another credible source on it please post it here.

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Post by Sorn Thu May 14, 2020 6:29 pm

CanuckBob wrote:There is a "debunking site" saying its BS. If true we will hear a lot about i it on every news station out there I imagine. Also the link to the page has been removed. Hopefully it has some merit. If you find another credible source on it please post it here.

Up front, I have no legitimate, verifiable, source but heard that doctors are electing to NOT put younger, otherwise healthy, patients with COVID on vents. The idea is that vents "teach" their lungs to not fight it off since the breathing is being done mechanically (yes, I get that this principle proves too much and contradicts established vent protocol). It's 100% anecdotal and based off the experience of Michael Yo, an American comedian and actor who contracted COVID and was hospitalized for a bit over a week, if I recall correctly. Just throwing it out there since it seems relevant, at least tangentially.

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Post by CanuckBob Thu May 14, 2020 6:49 pm

It totally made sense to me. Why would someone just make that up. Very strange out there.......

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Post by Sorn Thu May 14, 2020 7:00 pm

Dude, about half the time I post (here or on the other board) I get accused of being a shill or a nom de plume of someone else; despite usually citing a source for anything substantial. That's why I wanted to be up front about not having a legit source on this one. Thank you for encountering my post with an open mind.

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Post by Trailrunner Thu May 14, 2020 8:02 pm

CanuckBob wrote:It totally made sense to me. Why would someone just make that up. Very strange out there.......

I dunno. I got it from the Covid19 site. It makes sense, medically.
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Post by ferret Thu May 14, 2020 8:19 pm

CanuckBob wrote:There is a "debunking site" saying its BS. If true we will hear a lot about i it on every news station out there I imagine. Also the link to the page has been removed. Hopefully it has some merit. If you find another credible source on it please post it here.

Not total B.S. but there are errors in judgment in it... https://fullfact.org/online/thrombosis-covid-19/
I would also imagine that the little tidbit about the Mexican family using the honey/lemon/aspirin combo may do more harm than good... as in "well they put in 3 aspirin, let's double that and make sure". Yikes.

I copied part of the original facebook link ("autopsies-prove-covid-19-disseminated-intravascular-coagulation") and did a google search with it. Lots of information available to read saying that "yes, this can be a problem".

I guess the bottom line is, if you end up with Covid-19, to be aware that this is a possibility and to make sure that coagulation tests are done on arrival for a baseline. In any event, it would appear that most hospitals are aware of this complication now and are being pro-active.
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Post by mudgirl Thu May 14, 2020 8:33 pm

I have zero medical training, but it makes a lot of sense to me. It would explain why otherwise healthy 30 year olds are having strokes, and the COVID toes phenomenon, and the cases they are seeing in children of an inflammatory disease, all of which the medical community has not, to my knowledge, been able to figure out. Pneumonia-type coughs are phlemy, not dry, and the lungs of patients who've died of COVID are apparently like cement. If it was a respiratory-based virus, it's pretty difficult to understand why it would cause all those other symptoms in COVID positive patents, who in fact have no respiratory distress at all.

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Post by Jreboll Thu May 14, 2020 8:40 pm

Covid19 is an unknown strange animal. Just when we think we have a handle on it something new is discovered. It’s like the old Indian tale of a group of blind people and the elephant.
We have heard of clotting abnormalities, lung fibrosis, inflammatory syndromes, cytokine storms and so on. Also different treatment modalities are being tried. Those would be too numerous to list here.
I have heard that nutritional deficiencies have to be treated along with the other medications. Vitamin D and vitamin C are given as I am sure magnesium sulfate is. There was mention of Pepcid being helpful.
Some doctors are arguing against using ventilators and just using oxygen supplementation.
Eventually we’ll start to develop a more standardized way of treating this disease.

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Post by ferret Thu May 14, 2020 9:01 pm

It (the DIC) makes total sense to me as well. There is some interesting reading regarding ethnic origin... as in "Asian not likely, Caucasian more likely, African heritage even MORE likely". My take on the Asian "not likely" is because they were not even aware of this complicating problem at that time. Who knows.

The newly learned information is coming at us very quickly now. The mere fact that we live in such an easy world of communication means that the sharing of observations in the medical world is lightning fast. That's good.
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Post by ferret Fri May 15, 2020 1:02 am

Okay, I have just finished a pile of reading and bookmarking articles. I will try and put them in some semblance of order to explain my logic..
The short story is YES to supplementation with vitamin D3 PLUS magnesium because they go together like a horse and carriage. I knew about the role of vitamin D3 and the immune system. I did not know about its effect on coagulation.

1) Two links about the thrombosis in Covid-19...
https://www.tctmd.com/news/how-covid-19-promotes-thrombosis-posing-problems-drug-drug-interactions

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/05/autopsies-covid-19-patients-reveal-clotting-concerns?fbclid=IwAR2Bl4Lir_ZKXkQQj0xzGg-TCY7WUW3uhfF8nCQYliq6gv4qO5RywcHNbok

My question is a kind of chicken and egg one as to which came first. Does the Covid-19 cause the clotting or is it a deficiency of Vitamin D3 that allows it to do so because...

2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22314609 this is a heavy duty read

3) https://ca.style.yahoo.com/new-study-suggests-vitamin-d-linked-covid-19-mortality-141201888.html

4) https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-coronavirus

5) https://jaoa.org/article.aspx?articleid=2673882 role of magnesium in the activation of D3

As most of the articles about supplementation state, Vitamin D3 and Magnesium levels should be checked before taking but most of us (especially of a certain age) are deficient. They won't stop you from getting the coronavirus but they may make the outcome far less severe.
I've been taking D3 for the past twenty years because I have an autoimmune disease and have only had one respiratory infection in that time. YMMV
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Post by Sorn Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_ZJ8YDOX6g  This is a three hour, largely non-political (skip roughly 2h-2h45m if you're easily triggered), discussion of immunology, diet, and viral suppression, particularly as it applies to Covid. It reinforces, especially, the importance of Vitamin D and heat-shock proteins for this virus. I welcome any criticisms of Dr. Patrick or her theses. If, on the other hand, you do not bother to listen to her, then shut the f$ck up and move along.

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Post by dogdaze Fri May 15, 2020 8:04 am

here is a website which debunks the DIC diagnosis.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2020/783880/.

This is the first time I nave posted a link so I don't know if I have done it correctly. I hope it works

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Post by Jreboll Fri May 15, 2020 8:45 am

That link does not debunk it at all. The claim is a three part statement, some being false, but the link doesn’t provide any depth to back up its claims.
I’ve been following Chris Martenson’s Peak Prosperity website on a daily basis since early February. He holds a PhD in pathology from Duke U. But is not affiliated with any organization but his own. He is very knowledgeable and knows how to explain things. He has covered every facet of this problem and follows the facts with no preconceived ideology. He also tries to see behind the misinformation put out by different parties.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2UoBUcW2I

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Post by CanuckBob Fri May 15, 2020 9:04 am

Mexico is reporting 42,595 confirmed cases this morning.

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Post by Jreboll Fri May 15, 2020 9:18 am

Like clockwork, we’re up to 2000-2500 cases a day

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Post by CanuckBob Fri May 15, 2020 9:21 am

When I see the numbers I times them by 8 to get an actual picture.......which would put us #2 behind the US.

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Post by Trailrunner Fri May 15, 2020 9:30 am

Here we go! Bob, show this to the debunker people.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sah.org.ar%2Fpdf%2Fcovid-19%2F083-20_pre-publishing.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjaj-nbtLTpAhVHHqwKHa27CvMQFjACegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1ssTtg99m17y39yauXE0Ob
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Post by gringal Fri May 15, 2020 9:42 am

Trailrunner wrote:Here we go! Bob, show this to the debunker people.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sah.org.ar%2Fpdf%2Fcovid-19%2F083-20_pre-publishing.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjaj-nbtLTpAhVHHqwKHa27CvMQFjACegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1ssTtg99m17y39yauXE0Ob

TR: for us non-medical folks, would you please summarize this and translate it from medi-speak to plain English speak? Conclusions? pirat

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Post by Jreboll Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am

Finally, someone brought a gun to a gun fight.
This paper acknowledges the presence of inflammation and homeostasis abnormalities but there is a lot to be learned as to how to treat it.

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