What happened at the Big Meeting today?

After reading all 80+ responses on this forum and another 90 or so on TOB, one common factor seems to run through many of the responses. Very few people have any real knowledge of the way things work in Mexico (I include myself) for way too many reasons to explore. Prior to the meeting, I felt there were too many NOB solutions being offered up and from the meeting description, way too much NOB type pontificating by people who lack an understanding of the system or respecting the Mexican culture. There are certainly a select few on this forum and TOB who do have a grasp only because they have spent years learning by being immersed and being taught by their experiences. Rather than listening to these resources, far too much time is being spent with people trying to prove who has the best answer or solution.

When I see someone posting that Federales were all over Ajijic yesterday and then it comes out that they were in fact State and Chapala police - it is a perfect example of people without a clue! On more than one occasion, I have seen the statement: "Cartels don't bother us" or something similar. What part of trickle down crime do these people not understand? Have you ever heard of a NOB police department declare that they were putting all their resources to preventing pickpocketing or purse snatching? Dealing with crime is a "big picture" effort and I would say that Mexican Cartels are at the very top of the big picture!

On TOB, I saw mention of Crime Stoppers and also of the possibility of hiring an independent security consultant. I did some further research on Crime Stoppers and was surprised to learn:
1) It is now an International operation: http://www.c-s-i.org/
2) There is at least one Mexican version in Juarez: http://crimestoppersjuarez.org/English/about.aspx
http://blog.chron.com/bakerblog/2009/12/can-crime-stoppers-make-mexico-a-safer-place/
Interestingly, the toll free number is answered in the US to provide citizens with some assurance of the integrity of their calls.
There is some indication that if Crime Stoppers is invited to attend to a community, their consultations are provided either free or at a very nominal cost.

The other aspect that drives me nuts is the constant reference or rationalization to what is happening in XYZ city NOB. It means absolutely nothing in relation to what is happening in Mexico!

Larry is right. It isn't just the cost of the house you have to figure into the equation. Property taxes NOB have no where to go but up with all the foreclosures. How about air conditioning. It's running at least $700 a month in Phoenix. A maid, or cleaning service, try about $150 per visit. How about a gardener? Ditto. Health insurance, $12,000 a year, if you qualify.

So, let's figure on about $6,000 for property taxes.
Air conditioning $8,400
Maid once a week $7,800
Gardener once a week $7,800
Insurance, $12,000
We're already up to $42,000 before we've even bought food.

Property tax here maybe $300
Health insurance $600
Maid once a week @ 300 pesos $2,350 approx.
Gardener once a week @300 pesos $2,350, approx.
Air conditioning zero
Heating maybe 150 a year

Grand total $5,750

What's worse a lot of communities NOB are laying off half of their police forces. Why, because they're bankrupt. Random shootings happen in the U.S. every day.

So where would you rather be? Great weather, affordable home services, affordable medical care gorgeous scenery and flowers all year long and it's a helluva lot more interesting than anywhere NOB.

If you figure those same services which we get here are going to ding you for $210,000 over just five years NOB, just how affordable is it really?

cheenagringo is correct (when he is not argumentative, or conflicted). check out TOB: glintner68 (10:30am today), moreliana (8:09am today), lakeheron (yesterday). all 3 comments are exactly what i had been writing for 3 weeks prior to the home invasions/murder. people have short memories.

well pat yourself on the back oh wise sage

susan wrote:dog is correct 100%. i mentioned florida a few days ago. there are properties for sale (my relatives are selling one near boca. price reduced 2 xs, clubhouse pool 3 bds, newer construction). no crime talk, no long discussions of paperwork visas, traffic cops, learning spanish, firecrackers. prices in floresta/lakeside are higher than properties in the US, or the same. who would come here w/all the hassle? most retirees here did not choose this place for the "culture". the deals were over in lakeside after 2003.

This might be an alternative for those that are American citizens and are eligible for medicare. You forget that half the expats at the lake are non-Americans which means they cannot be in the US for more than 6 months per calender year and must be prepared to pay 10K to 20K per year (each) for medical insurance. I think not.............

If I needed to go elsewhere it wouldn't be the US (or France). I would be checking out other sleepy burbs in Mexico or points further south (or Cuba or DR). I just had a buddy return from a trip to Nicaragua of all places. He has two expat friends that live there and they love it. Paradise it what you make of it I suppose.........

CheenaGringo wrote:After reading all 80+ responses on this forum and another 90 or so on TOB, one common factor seems to run through many of the responses. Very few people have any real knowledge of the way things work in Mexico (I include myself) for way too many reasons to explore. Prior to the meeting, I felt there were too many NOB solutions being offered up and from the meeting description, way too much NOB type pontificating by people who lack an understanding of the system or respecting the Mexican culture. There are certainly a select few on this forum and TOB who do have a grasp only because they have spent years learning by being immersed and being taught by their experiences. Rather than listening to these resources, far too much time is being spent with people trying to prove who has the best answer or solution.

When I see someone posting that Federales were all over Ajijic yesterday and then it comes out that they were in fact State and Chapala police - it is a perfect example of people without a clue! On more than one occasion, I have seen the statement: "Cartels don't bother us" or something similar. What part of trickle down crime do these people not understand? Have you ever heard of a NOB police department declare that they were putting all their resources to preventing pickpocketing or purse snatching? Dealing with crime is a "big picture" effort and I would say that Mexican Cartels are at the very top of the big picture!

On TOB, I saw mention of Crime Stoppers and also of the possibility of hiring an independent security consultant. I did some further research on Crime Stoppers and was surprised to learn:
1) It is now an International operation: http://www.c-s-i.org/
2) There is at least one Mexican version in Juarez: http://crimestoppersjuarez.org/English/about.aspx
http://blog.chron.com/bakerblog/2009/12/can-crime-stoppers-make-mexico-a-safer-place/
Interestingly, the toll free number is answered in the US to provide citizens with some assurance of the integrity of their calls.
There is some indication that if Crime Stoppers is invited to attend to a community, their consultations are provided either free or at a very nominal cost.

The other aspect that drives me nuts is the constant reference or rationalization to what is happening in XYZ city NOB. It means absolutely nothing in relation to what is happening in Mexico!

CG, The terms of the meeting were set by El Presidente who wanted to hear from the community their specific recommendations. 6 were provided by the speakers and they included recommendations on how to pay for them. There was no pontificating by anyone at the meeting. El Presidente thanked the representatives of the Jalisco government for coming and said "This is not a political issue." Jalisco gov't and Chapala gov't are from different political parties. He added that whenever he has requested help from the State they have always responded positively.

maincoone/dawg have common sense (&canuckbob). the rest are infantile & have arrested development, low intelligence, or both. most people hang on to bizarre ideological ideas, this blocks the capacity to think in logical terms. (i AM wise, thank you larry! i am trend forecaster). something is in the works for chapala/ajijic, not ready to tell. need a break from the cartoons, troll alerts, & general adolesent behavior.

Were the Mexican residents well represented in terms of numbers attended? And, did the Mexican community get to speak up and offer their ideas for resolutions? (Hidden in these questions is another question - did expats dominate the meeting in terms of numbers and expressing their concerns?) The reason I ask is that I know of many Mexican folks around the lake who have been hit by robberies, muggings, bus thefts, ATM scam, etc, my two godsons had a neighbor murdered in the street outside their home last Christmas night...Mexicans are just as vulnerable as expats, and usually have far less in resources to make up for the loss....OK, just wondering - if anyone cares to respond. Thanks.

Mainecoons wrote:I agree Racqueteer but had it been made clear that those initial comments were directed at the expats to drive home how serious the situation is, it would have been better. However, as usual 20:20 hindsight is always better.

Frankly, given how piss poor the police protection is here, I am amazed at how little crime we have, particularly considering that the community is much more urban in it arrangement and the close proximity of relative wealth to poverty. We have a lot of folks here whose only experience is living in the 'burbs where there is no street crime because they are so isolated and no one is on the street anyway.

I guarantee that if the police were this inept NOB, the crime up there would be totally unbelievable. That it is not here is a tribute to the Mexican community IMO.

Mainecoons - you make a very interesting point....I like your perspective. The fact that there is little police protection and crime is as low as it is, is amazing, when you think about it. Thanks for your take.

[quote="Mad_Max: And disappointed that a key player was missing - the ministerio - as their participation and support is required for some of the solutions....
In reply to this Mad Max, from what I have heard from Mexican organizers that worked on the meeting is that they want to see heads roll at the M.P. - fire everyone and get all new people in there. There are many folks complaining that the MP office is useless and doesn't do anything to solve crimes...so maybe that is why they did not come and/or were not invited by the Mayor/President....I think that maybe the President himself said something hostile about the M.P. in the first meeting held with Linda Fossi and the restaurant owners...

canuckbob: i was speaking of americans only. & those who have medicare. canadians may be better off staying here, i do not know the those facts. as for you, because of your age you may have more options than those 20 plus yrs & older. everyones situation & social tastes are different. personally i would like to live where i never have to see a mall. and where they have fireplaces lit in the winter. i lived that way most of my life (never saw a mall untill i came here). i liked it better before the changes.

Well, I agree with the posters who wrote about housing prices lakeside...I have been disappointed about the prices in the past 2 years. I do not want to shell out the money the sellers are charging. Especially when I know many of the homes were purchased for half or less than the selling price. I know of some folks who purchased for $60K or $80K, have done nothing to update the house, and are asking $150K - $225K. Why? The demand is not there. Price follows demand. When demand is down, price goes down. The market determines what a house sells for. However, there is a unique situation with many homeowners in Mexico - they own their houses outright, they are paid for, so they can sit on the house and wait for it to sell at their price, even if it takes years. Anyhoo, I think the housing market is inflated and needs to come down. For all the reasons Susan cited, I would rather move to Chapala than to Florida. But, I don't have any hope of buying.

David:

Granted I wasn't there but from posts on both this forum and TOB, it was mentioned more than once how much time was spent at the start of the meeting regarding real estate values, money the foreign community spends, less new people or more leaving, etc. Maybe you would rather I call this posturing? Certainly El Presidente asked for specific recommendations from the community!

I would speculate that in the past, you have seen business managers or politicians ask questions in such a manner that they would get back the answers that they want. Could it have been that El Presidente would have been smart enough to ask in such a manner, so that he could be reasonably assured that the recommendations would be unworkable in Mexico? Should that be the case, it is then easy to ignore or write them off by knowing they wouldn't fit the system. Is there a possibility that had people who really understood the limitations of the system drawn up more workable recommendations, and maybe it would have put El Presidente on the spot to act on them?

I would also be willing to speculate that El Presidente recognizes the fact that the cartels are the elephant in his sandbox.

57Chevy wrote: Were the Mexican residents well represented in terms of numbers attended? And, did the Mexican community get to speak up and offer their ideas for resolutions? (Hidden in these questions is another question - did expats dominate the meeting in terms of numbers and expressing their concerns?) The reason I ask is that I know of many Mexican folks around the lake who have been hit by robberies, muggings, bus thefts, ATM scam, etc, my two godsons had a neighbor murdered in the street outside their home last Christmas night...Mexicans are just as vulnerable as expats, and usually have far less in resources to make up for the loss....OK, just wondering - if anyone cares to respond. Thanks.

Yes, the Mexican community was well represented. There were more foreigners for sure, but many Mexican business owners and working class too. The crowd wasn't "expressing its concerns." The meeting was well organized, as El President had requested. The gathering of ideas was was open to everyone. The organizers received over 800 emails and over 100 phone calls and letters submitting ideas. There was ample opportunity, given the short time frame, for anyone and everyone to submit suggestions. How many suggestions came from the Nationals vs. Foreigners? I don't know. But I will tell you that the Locals applauded vigorously as each suggestion was read in Spanish!

CheenaGringo wrote:David:

Granted I wasn't there but from posts on both this forum and TOB, it was mentioned more than once how much time was spent at the start of the meeting regarding real estate values, money the foreign community spends, less new people or more leaving, etc. Maybe you would rather I call this posturing? Certainly El Presidente asked for specific recommendations from the community!

I would speculate that in the past, you have seen business managers or politicians ask questions in such a manner that they would get back the answers that they want. Could it have been that El Presidente would have been smart enough to ask in such a manner, so that he could be reasonably assured that the recommendations would be unworkable in Mexico? Should that be the case, it is then easy to ignore or write them off by knowing they wouldn't fit the system. Is there a possibility that had people who really understood the limitations of the system drawn up more workable recommendations, and maybe it would have put El Presidente on the spot to act on them?

I would also be willing to speculate that El Presidente recognizes the fact that the cartels are the elephant in his sandbox.

-----

OOOOH VERY GOOD POINT CHINAGRINGO!!! NO ONE HAS BROUGHT THIS UP YET....and of course, the cartels are all over the officials....some have been killed, others threatened....some have cooperated....MAYBE THE GROUP SHOULD HAVE A MEETING WITH THE CARTELS!!

David wrote:

57Chevy wrote: Were the Mexican residents well represented in terms of numbers attended? And, did the Mexican community get to speak up and offer their ideas for resolutions? (Hidden in these questions is another question - did expats dominate the meeting in terms of numbers and expressing their concerns?) The reason I ask is that I know of many Mexican folks around the lake who have been hit by robberies, muggings, bus thefts, ATM scam, etc, my two godsons had a neighbor murdered in the street outside their home last Christmas night...Mexicans are just as vulnerable as expats, and usually have far less in resources to make up for the loss....OK, just wondering - if anyone cares to respond. Thanks.

Yes, the Mexican community was well represented. There were more foreigners for sure, but many Mexican business owners and working class too. The crowd wasn't "expressing its concerns." The meeting was well organized, as El President had requested. The gathering of ideas was was open to everyone. The organizers received over 800 emails and over 100 phone calls and letters submitting ideas. There was ample opportunity, given the short time frame, for anyone and everyone to submit suggestions. How many suggestions came from the Nationals vs. Foreigners? I don't know. But I will tell you that the Locals applauded vigorously as each suggestion was read in Spanish!

[b]THANKS DAVID!! THAT HELPS ME GET THE PICTURE!

CheenaGringo wrote:David:

Granted I wasn't there but from posts on both this forum and TOB, it was mentioned more than once how much time was spent at the start of the meeting regarding real estate values, money the foreign community spends, less new people or more leaving, etc. Maybe you would rather I call this posturing? Certainly El Presidente asked for specific recommendations from the community!

I would speculate that in the past, you have seen business managers or politicians ask questions in such a manner that they would get back the answers that they want. Could it have been that El Presidente would have been smart enough to ask in such a manner, so that he could be reasonably assured that the recommendations would be unworkable in Mexico? Should that be the case, it is then easy to ignore or write them off by knowing they wouldn't fit the system. Is there a possibility that had people who really understood the limitations of the system drawn up more workable recommendations, and maybe it would have put El Presidente on the spot to act on them?

I would also be willing to speculate that El Presidente recognizes the fact that the cartels are the elephant in his sandbox.

CG, I was there and I don't understand the complaints about the presentations by Linda Fossi on the real estate market and Doug White on the change in the number of people moving here vs. those leaving. This all took maybe 20 minutes. Remember, everything took double time as each presentation whether made in Spanish or English was subsequently translated. The longest period was spent spelling out the six suggestions and the proposals for how to fund them. The meeting lasted 2 hours. The only proposal made that is not workable was the suggestion of increasing property taxes. All of the others are workable and legal as far as I know. Further, El Presidente agreed to have the organizers plus the President of any and all Fraccionimentos, LCS, Rotary, Lions club, American Legion, etc. join him and his staff for a meeting at 10AM tomorrow to review the suggestions and agree on a plan of action. I have found both El Presidente and the Police Capitan to be intelligent, engaged, honorable people who are working hard for the betterment of the Municipio.

So, what were all six of the suggestions. All I've seen are three or possibly four so far. Anybody want to step up to the plate here? All six, then let's discuss them one by one, shall we? Surely those who attended the meeting must have written them down.

1. More feet on the street, not 5 cops riding around in trucks
2. Temporary assistance from the Policia Estatal, (the state police).
3. Anonymous crime tip line, staffed 24/7, bilingual. Rewards for tips leading to successful prosecution.
4. Police box with tire barrier strips at each exit from the area.
5. 1 peso/mtr sq. increase in property tax
6. Charge Telmex, CFE, and Telecable for "right of way" use.

What's to discuss? They'll all be discussed tomorrow at El Presidente's staff meeting. Let's wait until we hear the outcome of that meeting.

No the Mexican population was not well represented. They are way more Mexicans in the Chapala Municipality and they were way more foreigners than Mexicans.
Most of the Mexicans did not have a voice if they do not spend their time on Internet.
It was not a question answer type meeting. Linda sollicited ideas from many people and presented the ideas she received via Internet (800) and phone (100)
I am sure everyone on the panel worked extremely hard on the meeting as it is a lot of work to put an event like this in such a short amount of time together.
The Mexicans who got involved were the ones involved with the foreign community but the majority of them was not involved and looked at the meeting as a meeting of foreigners who were upset because someone was killed and were trying to improve the security in the village. That is the feed back I got .
You cannot say did any Mexican have anything to say as I am sure some of them sent their solutions too so they were part of the meeting. No one except for one person called el Churro got to talk outside of the panel who were representing the people at the meeting.

As far as all solutions being legal it remains to be seen.
The curfews of certain people or group of people are not legal. If you mean by curfews having business close early or earlier, I do not know.

No question that the Presidente and the Chief of police are smart, a whole lot smarter than many people who were present.

chevy57, it was not about crime around the lake but about the Chapala Municipality.

Brigitte

David wrote:1. More feet on the street, not 5 cops riding around in trucks
2. Temporary assistance from the Policia Estatal, (the state police).
3. Anonymous crime tip line, staffed 24/7, bilingual. Rewards for tips leading to successful prosecution.
4. Police box with tire barrier strips at each exit from the area.
5. 1 peso/mtr sq. increase in property tax
6. Charge Telmex, CFE, and Telecable for "right of way" use.

What's to discuss? They'll all be discussed tomorrow at El Presidente's staff meeting. Let's wait until we hear the outcome of that meeting.

1. More feet on the street. Hmm, do you want to be wandering around without backup?
2. Temporary assistance from state police, sounds good. How about some federales as well?
3. Crime tip line, sounds feasible, actually a very good solution.
4. Police box with barrier strip, is this a joke? Does anyone have any idea of how bad the traffic would be under such a scenario?
5. Tax increase, what??????? Where is the money really going to go? Who is going to manage extra funds?
6. I'm afraid I don't even understand the charge Telmex, CFE and telecable for right of way use? Would you mind explaining exactly what that means?

OK, one time.
1. How about 2 cops walking a beat and one or two in a truck?
2. The request was made to the State of Jalisco because the issues here are not Federal crimes.
3. OK
4. The barrier strip would be used only when needed.
5. The Municipio has no taxing authority so this is no-go.
6. Very common NOB and Municipio has the authority. The poles are on public property, it's common to charge for the "right of way" use. Many cities in Mexico already do.

"Over time they will gain wisdom through experience."

Or not! Experience is hard to achieve when one hides behind those gated walls or never leaves the confines of the "comfort zone".

sounds relaxing :) as long as the bar is well stocked and have sumthin for the Bar B...

CheenaGringo wrote:"Over time they will gain wisdom through experience."

Or not! Experience is hard to achieve when one hides behind those gated walls or never leaves the confines of the "comfort zone".

Hides behind the gated wals? Seriously, we are out and about all the time and are not afraid of the little crime that takes place here like some others who live here. Yes, a Gated Community is a confort zone for many people. Do you see us having ANY problems here? We do not.

What do you know about Lakeside anyway, except what you read on these forums, much of which is misinformation?

Rumor from TOB but apparently confirmed by Intercasa:

The Mayor or El Presidente of Chapala apparently took some sort of leave of absence to pursue a higher office. Wonder what that did for today's meeting?