What happened at the Big Meeting today?

Juanrey - I agree completely that many people NOB come here for the low taxes, good weather and other low costs. The police are paid very little as are most municipal workers compared to in the US or Canada. And yet people expect the same level of protection from police here. I don't pretend to know the answer but I spend as much as I can on my own protection.

I was in the back and a group next to me was pretty loud about the taxes. They were Mexicans.

As someone once said, if you are not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

It seems to me that a lot of folks want to criticize yesterday's meeting, and yet I am willing to bet those same people didn't send in their suggestion, didn't attend, and want to sit back and be critics. Those people are part of the problem.

I commend those who organized the effort and got us to this point.
Now let's hope something happens.

Mainecoons wrote:That actually raises a good point, Solo. Just where do the munipalities get their money? From the VAT? I confess I don't know the answer to this question. If you do, please spell it out, thanks!

Federal (mostly) and state allocations. VAT is obviously a federal tax.

Mainecoons wrote:I agree Racqueteer but had it been made clear that those initial comments were directed at the expats to drive home how serious the situation is, it would have been better. However, as usual 20:20 hindsight is always better.

Frankly, given how piss poor the police protection is here, I am amazed at how little crime we have, particularly considering that the community is much more urban in it arrangement and the close proximity of relative wealth to poverty. We have a lot of folks here whose only experience is living in the 'burbs where there is no street crime because they are so isolated and no one is on the street anyway.

I guarantee that if the police were this inept NOB, the crime up there would be totally unbelievable. That it is not here is a tribute to the Mexican community IMO.

Nice cat. The expats should already be aware of how serious the situation is. That presumably is why they were there. Moaning about property values for first hour, was just an appalling waste of time, and in very poor taste.

Poor taste or not, it was done.

I thought the emphasis on the economics was twofold, # 1 to drive the point home to the officials that were there and # 2 to make sure the expats know how bad the situation is affecting things and hopefully get their financial support.

I agree it was too long, and perhaps overdone a little bit, but it's easy to be a critic and I wonder how each of us would have chosen to conduct the meeting if we had organized it.

Overall, I still think it was a fairly good start.

I agree. 90% always complain without offering to help.
The turnout was a huge show of support and frustration to the public officials.
I hear locals complain too about all of the home robbery's and no action to catch or stop this.
I agree that some effort going forward hopefully is being made to offer them a chance to appear to be offering up their own solutions and not that the expats are demanding this.
But give Linda her due she did step up and get this going, now it's really important to stay focused going forward and keep engaged.
Rome wasn't built in a day.

brigitte wrote:I was not expecting anything to come out of the meeting so I was not disapponted but I was appalled that the "our leaders" would show all their cards when the authorities had barely anytime to speak, were not asked about their plans and ideas and therefore did not show any of their cards.
Sorry bad strategy in my book.

I agree. At times, felt like I was the audience in a reality show - here comes solution number 2# - (based on how many votes were received)

And in response to another poster = some people were on the email list - others were not - mexican and expats.

And disappointed that a key player was missing - the ministerio - as their participation and support is required for some of the solutions

I do hope that Linda will get the support of the Mexican Community as she moves forward - and includes at least several in her future implementation meetings with the authorities - so this is a community effort

Juanrey said it very well about the folks moving here and expecting first class service on many levels for low cost outlay. Are they "welfare kings and queens, south" or what? LOL.

I doubt many of us could begin to survive on a typical policeman's pay with our NOB expectations. I'd like to see them get a decent wage........but that is probably not going to happen as a result of foreigners talking about their declining property values and their fears of a violent society. It's a budget issue. Back in the states, the poor economy is resulting in reductions in service across the board.

A business owner I know who has lived many years in Mexico said that if we really wanted to increase security in our neighborhoods, we could hire a top notch security firm in Guadalajara to patrol them and pay the going rate out of pocket to do so. I am trying to picture that happening. Nope. Can't picture it. Not a bad idea, though.

Read the background on the meerting and you'll see that the purpose of the meeting was for El Presidente and his invited guests to hear our ideas of what could be done. This was HIS request. I don't believe MP was invited.

gringal wrote:Juanrey said it very well about the folks moving here and expecting first class service on many levels for low cost outlay. Are they "welfare kings and queens, south" or what? LOL.

I doubt many of us could begin to survive on a typical policeman's pay with our NOB expectations. I'd like to see them get a decent wage........but that is probably not going to happen as a result of foreigners talking about their declining property values and their fears of a violent society. It's a budget issue. Back in the states, the poor economy is resulting in reductions in service across the board.

A business owner I know who has lived many years in Mexico said that if we really wanted to increase security in our neighborhoods, we could hire a top notch security firm in Guadalajara to patrol them and pay the going rate out of pocket to do so. I am trying to picture that happening. Nope. Can't picture it. Not a bad idea, though.

I'm certainly willing to put that idea out in our community, in fact I did suggest it as one of the solutions on this board. Hiring someone who is licensed to carry, and can do the job would sure put a big dent in crime in any neighborhood. That along with some signs prominently posted would send a massive message to the small time perps.

Agreed the Ministerio should have been there but they do want to remain independent of local political pressure and pressure from the public and will tell you that if you ask them.
They desperatly need more people in Chapala if they are to do a decent job. Their work load is huge, the paperwork they have to produce if anyone is to be convicted huge as well . Their job has to be one of the most frustrating. The police brings a few people and the judge lets them go meanwhile they do work very long hours and hear nothing but complaints.
It is too bad they chose not to be involved as they are part of the solution.

David wrote:Read the background on the meerting and you'll see that the purpose of the meeting was for El Presidente and his invited guests to hear our ideas of what could be done. This was HIS request. I don't believe MP was invited.

But is not the MP responsible for finding the killer - and the guys that committed the breakins? They are the ones doing the investigative work - have the detectives, right? When Alan was killed, they worked together - but that isn't the norm based on my understanding -

As another poster said - they are part of the solution. From my perspective - a very significant part.

Linda in her e-mail said the Governor and the MP were invited and someone of the panel made some comment about them not being there, I think it was Sr. Najera but I am not sure..

A quote from Linda's original announcement:
"He promised to call the Governor, the Chief of Police, the Head of Ministers Publico, and the Head of Tourism and he CHANGED OUR NEXT MEETING TO WEDNESDAY, DEC 7TH, at 4 pm at Real del Chapala Hotel in La Floresta. PLEASE PUT THAT DATE AND TIME ON YOUR CALENDARS. He told me this meeting would NOT be to rehash all that is wrong and all the various crimes, but to bring SOLUTIONS to this awful situation. He said I could speak and three others ONLY. That I was to ASK YOU all (by this email), WHAT IS YOUR ONE LINE BEST SOLUTION."

Maybe semantics but "he promised to call"? Apparently the Governor wasn't there either?

When friends of ours were broken into, forensics had to come from Ocotlan, it took three days if I remember correctly.

whats is Linda's email?

larryc wrote:whats is Linda's email?

lfossi@hotmail.com

raqueteer wrote:
I'm certainly willing to put that idea out in our community, in fact I did suggest it as one of the solutions on this board. Hiring someone who is licensed to carry, and can do the job would sure put a big dent in crime in any neighborhood. That along with some signs prominently posted would send a massive message to the small time perps.

Another pipe dream. The government isn't going to allow armed private security agents to patrol city streets. Plus complicated legalities concerning responsibilty if something bad should happen, which undoubtedly will.

Solovino wrote:

raqueteer wrote:
I'm certainly willing to put that idea out in our community, in fact I did suggest it as one of the solutions on this board. Hiring someone who is licensed to carry, and can do the job would sure put a big dent in crime in any neighborhood. That along with some signs prominently posted would send a massive message to the small time perps.

Another pipe dream. The government isn't going to allow armed private security agents to patrol city streets. Plus complicated legalities concerning responsibilty if something bad should happen, which undoubtedly will.

Well, some of my neighbors do hire armed security guards when they have parties. Never heard any complaints about that. Businesses are permitted to have armed security guards standing outside their doors, why not a fracc?

The only tyhing worse than no meeting at all is an ineptly run meeting mismanaged by amateurs harping on declining real estate values which were bloated to begin with. The reason Lakeside property values are declining and will continue to decline at an accelerating rate is complex in nature and the trend is fueled by far more than crime at Lakeside and incompetent civic administrators. The main source of expats to Lakeside is the U.S. which is experiencing a significant economic recession and the problem is further exacerbated by seriously declining property values there which has two affects:
* No cash-out equity at sale in the U.S. providing cash to buy a home in Mexico or any other Latin American country where cash on the barrel head or exhorbitant mortgage rates offered by shysters constitute the terms of sale.
* The deep discounting of prices on homes in traditional U.S. retirement markets such as Nevada, Arizona and Florida where one can now (unlike when we moved here in 2001) buy a home for a hell of a lot less money than at today´s prices at Lakeside. Lakesiders still trying to sell their homes at premiums are living in a fool´s paradise.

You´d have to be entirely frivolous to pay a high price for a home here now. Come here, if you wish, rent (rentals should be easy to find these days) and wait until sellers are up against the wall and bargain and offer discount pricing with aplomb. Who knows where the drug wars and in-town criminality are going but don´t be surprised if things go south big time over the next few years. Don´t even think of buying if you cannot get a true deal.

We bought in 2001 and lived by the axiom that one should never invest in Mexico any money one cannot afford to lose. That, we did so we can wait this out. So, adios NOBBERS. Don´t let the door hit you in the ass on the road to Cedar Rapids.

I'm not defending Linda but she did not harp on anything that long if you had been there you would know that.
You might not like how she and the other ran the meeting but as others have said " those who can do while the crowds usually just complains and never ever volunteers to help"
So what the heck give it a chance it won't hurt to be a little positive, you never know

dog is correct 100%. i mentioned florida a few days ago. there are properties for sale (my relatives are selling one near boca. price reduced 2 xs, clubhouse pool 3 bds, newer construction). no crime talk, no long discussions of paperwork visas, traffic cops, learning spanish, firecrackers. prices in floresta/lakeside are higher than properties in the US, or the same. who would come here w/all the hassle? most retirees here did not choose this place for the "culture". the deals were over in lakeside after 2003.

Your free to move back anytime.
Have you really looked at the crime rate in the US lately? It's skyrocketing out of control.
Shooting in virginia Tech again, New orleans will break it's own murder record and on we go--------
There is no perfect place and taxes in the US are heading nowhere but up as they trey to hang on to their bloated idea of failed government.
California, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania are near bankrupt and many more states are close behind. The great American dream is in serious trouble. why do you think their passing all of these sneaky tax collection laws trying to keep as much money as possible to keep the party going ?

hound dog wrote:The only tyhing worse than no meeting at all is an ineptly run meeting mismanaged by amateurs harping on declining real estate values which were bloated to begin with. The reason Lakeside property values are declining and will continue to decline at an accelerating rate is complex in nature and the trend is fueled by far more than crime at Lakeside and incompetent civic administrators. The main source of expats to Lakeside is the U.S. which is experiencing a significant economic recession and the problem is further exacerbated by seriously declining property values there which has two affects:
* No cash-out equity at sale in the U.S. providing cash to buy a home in Mexico or any other Latin American country where cash on the barrel head or exhorbitant mortgage rates offered by shysters constitute the terms of sale.
* The deep discounting of prices on homes in traditional U.S. retirement markets such as Nevada, Arizona and Florida where one can now (unlike when we moved here in 2001) buy a home for a hell of a lot less money than at today´s prices at Lakeside. Lakesiders still trying to sell their homes at premiums are living in a fool´s paradise.

You´d have to be entirely frivolous to pay a high price for a home here now. Come here, if you wish, rent (rentals should be easy to find these days) and wait until sellers are up against the wall and bargain and offer discount pricing with aplomb. Who knows where the drug wars and in-town criminality are going but don´t be surprised if things go south big time over the next few years. Don´t even think of buying if you cannot get a true deal.

We bought in 2001 and lived by the axiom that one should never invest in Mexico any money one cannot afford to lose. That, we did so we can wait this out. So, adios NOBBERS. Don´t let the door hit you in the ass on the road to Cedar Rapids.

You hit the nail right on the head, Dawg. RE prices are going down all over, or will soon be in those few islands of inflated prices left, and that includes here. Had an interesting conversation with an old timer who noted that houses were dirt cheap here when the lake was so low a decade ago.

One is a real fool to think that their oh so special house in their one of the kind, best on the planet gated community hasn't already taken a hit and is going to take an even bigger hit as time goes on. All you can look forward to is being able to sell for less and less for the forseeable future. Are you listening, John?

We've already decided, no more houses. If we have to leave here, we're buying another RV and going full time. Being able to retract one's awnings and jacks and drive down the road if current location doesn't suit has a lot to recommend it.

After reading all 80+ responses on this forum and another 90 or so on TOB, one common factor seems to run through many of the responses. Very few people have any real knowledge of the way things work in Mexico (I include myself) for way too many reasons to explore. Prior to the meeting, I felt there were too many NOB solutions being offered up and from the meeting description, way too much NOB type pontificating by people who lack an understanding of the system or respecting the Mexican culture. There are certainly a select few on this forum and TOB who do have a grasp only because they have spent years learning by being immersed and being taught by their experiences. Rather than listening to these resources, far too much time is being spent with people trying to prove who has the best answer or solution.

When I see someone posting that Federales were all over Ajijic yesterday and then it comes out that they were in fact State and Chapala police - it is a perfect example of people without a clue! On more than one occasion, I have seen the statement: "Cartels don't bother us" or something similar. What part of trickle down crime do these people not understand? Have you ever heard of a NOB police department declare that they were putting all their resources to preventing pickpocketing or purse snatching? Dealing with crime is a "big picture" effort and I would say that Mexican Cartels are at the very top of the big picture!

On TOB, I saw mention of Crime Stoppers and also of the possibility of hiring an independent security consultant. I did some further research on Crime Stoppers and was surprised to learn:
1) It is now an International operation: http://www.c-s-i.org/
2) There is at least one Mexican version in Juarez: http://crimestoppersjuarez.org/English/about.aspx
http://blog.chron.com/bakerblog/2009/12/can-crime-stoppers-make-mexico-a-safer-place/
Interestingly, the toll free number is answered in the US to provide citizens with some assurance of the integrity of their calls.
There is some indication that if Crime Stoppers is invited to attend to a community, their consultations are provided either free or at a very nominal cost.

The other aspect that drives me nuts is the constant reference or rationalization to what is happening in XYZ city NOB. It means absolutely nothing in relation to what is happening in Mexico!