Yesterday's Crime Protest Meeting in the Mileneo today

Article in the Mileneo today about the meeting protest in Chapala yesterday - link: http://jalisco.milenio.com/cdb/doc/noticias2011/fbcd660be8c1b78f6448bb8957020e5a

American community in Ajijic for higher security
POLICE • DECEMBER 1, 2011 - 5:56 PM - HENRY SALDAÑA
Several people took to the gates of the presidency of Chapala.

Guadalajara • The dissatisfaction of the residents exploded over the death of one of their countrymen who died last Tuesday when he apparently opposed to an assault on the streets of Ajijic.

About 60 American citizens settled in Ajijic delegation marched in the town of Chapala presidency to demand greater security after the violent events that have occurred in the coastal town, the complainants were assisted by Chapala Mayor Jesus Cabrera Jiménez

Linda Fossi president of the American community residents of Ajijic, said that the settlement of Americans being the largest presence in the country, "the security level was 100 percent sure but in recent months we have had five events of crime where they have died people have been attacked and robbed, and we had not suffered, the community is very scared, "said the leader of the American Ajijic.

He also said they expect to have a meeting where they are present Jalisco authorities to solve their security problems, "We are outraged and the police have no action to resolve this problem."

U.S. residents indicated that the trigger for their anger was the killing of Stephen Chistoper Kahr 69 years originally from New York.

The murder occurred on 29 November , when the victim arrived at his home in September 16 and Donato Guerra in the colony Ajiijic center.

A Kahr Stephen surprised a man with a gun who demanded his wallet, but the thief was opposed and eventually hits a good gun that killed him.

That's a pretty lousy translation, furthermore there has been only one death of a gringo in recent months not five where people were killed, people were threatened, but not killed.

i do not support this meeting or linda fossi. she does not know what she is doing, no clue. first of all there are more mexicans murdered/assaulted in ajijic/chapala/joco than americans. these incidents are about robbery/crime, not drug related. the local govt does nothing. why would they help w/ american murders/home invasions? i dont think they care about the resturant owners, or real estate agents. let the mexicans handle that. the politicans have their paychecks, bribe $, why should they care? the mayor already gave his answer: ajijic is "not a significant tourist destination", the higher ups wont pay for protection. which for me is a good thing. i do NOT want more police around. i dont need to see more 20yr old boys casing the house. or planning a home invasion. the federal police were here several yrs ago looking for a neighbor/ drug dealer. they asked if i "lived alone"- i said my brother father husband lived here. why should i give them "side business". the policeman is not my friend, he is yours! the only way to give incentive to police is offer big rewards to find & jail criminals. if it is not a personal risk for them they will want the $$. that simple. americans do not know the system. if there was a 10,000-20,000-50,000 reward for the killer (less for robbery, it can vary), he would have been in jail. if this method becomes routine, the police will cooperate. they do not help their own why will they help you? who do you think you are?? "only way is to pay", (repeat after me.... only way is to pay). it is very foolish to threaten & say we "will" boycott. you should have done it silently. it would not have helped, but you lost your power by telling your next move. rewards are the sensible answer. nothing will become of this meeting. there have been dozens of the these meetings for years. but what do i know? i have no education, cant speak english. this is a troll alert.

susan - Useless post. No one cares what you think. If it were your father, brother or someone you cared about you would think that the protest was worthwhile. Did you go to school and what grade did you graduate frrom, if any? Try taking another course in punctuation.

Actually susan, that wasn't a bad idea at all. I do know a person who did exactly that, offered a reward to the local police, who then arrested four guys and sent the them off for years. Word got around, and he's never been bothered again. No one would dare.

Years ago a friend heard a noise in the night and got up to check. An intruder met her in the hallway..her in her nightgown. She screamed "MICHAEL!!" and the guy took off. It quite possibly saved her life...but she couldn't figure out why she did it. Michael was her four year old son.....fortunately the rapist (this wasn't his first break in) didn't know that.

raqueteer, YOU get it. john dosnt! whats there "not' to get? oh excuse me, we are in a different culture. maybe he didnt notice? he is not capable of critical thinking, or thinking @all. is this is too simple of a solution? these meetings are useless, repetitive, & have been going on years. IF it was a father brother etc, first thing i would do is offer a big reward. thats the way the world works john. i am sure many people would chip in. but then again "johninajijic" an "authority". need a solution? want to solve a murder? ask mr. john!

They are setting up a reward fund as part of the program.

Susan is correct, money talks in this country.

thank you mainecoones, i am generally correct. these people cannot understand the system. (or anyone or anything different than them). $ has always been the answer. it is an insult to the mayor for ask for anything special w/out the gratis.

I agree. As I stated before "money talks and bullshit walks". I totally agree with a reward system as long as it doesn't breed a new form of corruption where crimes are staged just to collect reward money. There would have to be some tight checks and balances on such a program. It could be set-up like a Crime-stoppers which I know has been mentioned before by other members.

About breeding a new corruption:
I think that is something to be concerned about. The "reward mentality" could get way out of hand.

gringal wrote:About breeding a new corruption:
I think that is something to be concerned about. The "reward mentality" could get way out of hand.

That is exactly right. And then there is the little detail of who deserves the reward and who actually gets the reward.

Well, speaking from what I've seen, the guy I know who did it, actually paid the cops on the street to first, find these guys, and then paid them again once they put them in jail.
There was no rash of crime following that episode, and he's been trouble free for years. Frankly so have we since he's warned everyone not to pull anything chueco (crooked) on us either.

raqueteer wrote:Well, speaking from what I've seen, the guy I know who did it, actually paid the cops on the street to first, find these guys, and then paid them again once they put them in jail.
There was no rash of crime following that episode, and he's been trouble free for years. Frankly so have we since he's warned everyone not to pull anything chueco (crooked) on us either.

And of course it was proven without a shadow of doubt that the ones that went to jail were the culprits?

Solovino wrote:

raqueteer wrote:Well, speaking from what I've seen, the guy I know who did it, actually paid the cops on the street to first, find these guys, and then paid them again once they put them in jail.
There was no rash of crime following that episode, and he's been trouble free for years. Frankly so have we since he's warned everyone not to pull anything chueco (crooked) on us either.

And of course it was proven without a shadow of doubt that the ones that went to jail were the culprits?

Yes, he took fingerprints, gave them to the cops and apparently they were known criminals.

Solovino wrote:

raqueteer wrote:Well, speaking from what I've seen, the guy I know who did it, actually paid the cops on the street to first, find these guys, and then paid them again once they put them in jail.
There was no rash of crime following that episode, and he's been trouble free for years. Frankly so have we since he's warned everyone not to pull anything chueco (crooked) on us either.

And of course it was proven without a shadow of doubt that the ones that went to jail were the culprits?

Yes, that is the other danger to a "reward system". Innocent victims getting locked away.

raqueteer wrote:
Yes, he took fingerprints, gave them to the cops and apparently they were known criminals.

WHO took fingerprints?

Solovino wrote:

raqueteer wrote:
Yes, he took fingerprints, gave them to the cops and apparently they were known criminals.

WHO took fingerprints?

He had a kit, did them himself and presented them as evidence. Seemed to work just fine. What's more, when their families asked for lenience, the judge told them that there was no way. Presumably he had cops there when he took the prints. I'll have to ask him.

May be the peritos took the prints.

There are a couple of problems with a "rewards based system" other than the obvious one expressed by Bob:
1) Possibilities of retaliation either against the "tipster" or his family is a real factor both NOB and even more so SOB.
2) A "tipster" has to be absolutely certain that his/her anonymity is assured by both the system in place and by the people within the system. Since there is a very basic mistrust of law enforcement, politicians, and military in Mexico, the citizenry will have to believe in something very concrete to make them feel comfortable.
3) There are basically two types of crimes that are typically reported:
a) A one time crime such as a murder or bank robbery where the tipster may have information on who, how and other details. This type of crime requires follow-up investigation and we are all aware of the limitations of that type work in Mexico. NOB one can expect that law enforcement will already have a case file open on the crime and a tip may be the final piece of evidence to bring a case to its rightful conclusion. In Mexico, I would guess that it would be a far different situation.
b) Then there is an ongoing criminal enterprise where the "tipster" may be able to provide crucial information whereby law enforcement can follow-up and hopefully catch the criminal act in progress. This tends to become more cut and dried when the case can be prosecuted without the need for outside witnesses.
4) Distribution of reward monies has to be an absolute process that people believe does happen in total anonymity. Payouts should be publicized but there can be no ties whatever to the "tipster".

From personal experience, I can say that the system which Crime Stoppers has in place is perfected and proven. In the past, I have been a witness in three prosecutions (murder, petty burglary and fraud/embezzlement) and had my life taken over throughout each of those processes. After the third one, I decided I had enough and contributed enough to not want to become involved again. Within the last three years, I became aware of a very serious ongoing criminal enterprise involving some very nasty types. I looked into so-called anonymous tip lines with both the local police and the NM State Police but just couldn't get comfortable with their processes. Instead, I turned to Crime Stoppers and provided detailed information on the operation, details on one participant and details on vehicles with specially constructed hidden compartments. Within about 30 days, I saw on the news that the ring had been broken and eleven individuals were in jail with what appears to be ironclad evidence against them. My biggest problem in dealing with Crime Stoppers was convincing them that I had no interest in any type of reward. I can state with strong assurance that any rewards system based on the Crime Stoppers model is a winner!

Clearly, English is not Susan´s native language and, for that reason, her discourse in English often seems disjointed and even irrational but Dawg has tried to read between the lines and finds some true wisdom in Susan´s positions. It´s always easy to make light of those whose grasp of a foreign tongue is imperfect but Dawg thinks Susan has some good points and, because she lacks good articulation in a foreign language, she has become an easy target for bullies who discount her points because they are not well articulated. That is not to say that I agree with her positions in general, but we all could gain wisdom by paying attention to her points if we forgave her inexperience with English fundamentals. I have no idea of Suasan´s progeny but I do believe she has a basic understanding of this culture in which we are all immersed. Listen and learn before acting impulsively when dealing with local authorities.

Those who think the interests of local authorities are grounded in altruism are being naive. Self interest is what counts. There is, no doubt, not even one authority figure with any clout in the Chapala Municipality who gives a flying f*ck about foreigners in their midst except as it serves their personal interests. Do you think for one minute that those of us native to the Alabama Coast were enamored of those Cheeseheads from Wisconsin or Canadians from the Frozen Tundra who invaded our coastlands because of the pleasant climate and reasonable cost of living? If we took it upon ourselves to help protect them it wasn´t out of our love of for them but our love for ourselves which was served by the maintenance of civil order. Keep that in mind as you deal with the Mexicans.

hound dog wrote:Clearly, English is not Susan´s native language and, for that reason, her discourse in English often seems disjointed and even irrational but Dawg has tried to read between the lines and finds some true wisdom in Susan´s positions. It´s always easy to make light of those whose grasp of a foreign tongue is imperfect but Dawg thinks Susan has some good points and, because she lacks good articulation in a foreign language, she has become an easy target for bullies who discount her points because they are not well articulated. That is not to say that I agree with her positions in general, but we all could gain wisdom by paying attention to her points if we forgave her inexperience with English fundamentals. I have no idea of Suasan´s progeny but I do believe she has a basic understanding of this culture in which we are all immersed. Listen and learn before acting impulsively when dealing with local authorities.

Those who think the interests of local authorities are grounded in altruism are being naive. Self interest is what counts. There is, no doubt, not even one authority figure with any clout in the Chapala Municipality who gives a flying f*ck about foreigners in their midst except as it serves their personal interests. Do you think for one minute that those of us native to the Alabama Coast were enamored of those Cheeseheads from Wisconsin or Canadians from the Frozen Tundra who invaded our coastlands because of the pleasant climate and reasonable cost of living? If we took it upon ourselves to help protect them it wasn´t out of our love of for them but our love for ourselves which was served by the maintenance of civil order. Keep that in mind as you deal with the Mexicans.

Very true. Which causes my sleazy little Canadian mind to the inevitable conclusion that a security company here would be a damned good idea. Not the alarm kind, but the ones that reinforce your wooden doors with metal and replace them in one day.

raqueteer wrote:

Solovino wrote:

raqueteer wrote:
Yes, he took fingerprints, gave them to the cops and apparently they were known criminals.

WHO took fingerprints?

He had a kit, did them himself and presented them as evidence. Seemed to work just fine. What's more, when their families asked for lenience, the judge told them that there was no way. Presumably he had cops there when he took the prints. I'll have to ask him.

A civilian? Sorry, but sounds like BS too me.

I think everyone here has good points....there are alot of excited people right now...murder has a way of doing that to folks. And, the meeting is for both mexicans and expats. The group doing the grassroots push is aware of the fact that mexicans are also being targeted as victims of crime - to my knowledge, it is not expat-centric. There has been a reaching out to the Mexican citizenry and many of the business owners who are sqwaking are Mexicans. And, I agree that self-interest is the sole motivator of change in Mexico. If there is not a self-serving incentive, there will be no change. That boils down to money. Money talks. Money gets things done. If people want more security, then people are going to have to come up with a way to pay for it. Which can lead to a polarized society, where only the rich can afford justice and the poor are out of luck. But, that sort of exists SOB, doesn't it? So, how do the villages along the lake come up with a system whereby the money is collected (via a tax?) and redistributed equitably among the entire community to protect everyone...don't know. What a convoluted mess..... And, I hope that the local government cares about the expat community lakeside. They help to power the economy there, and provide jobs for many residents---business owners, employers of maids and gardeners, buying in the stores and restaurants, building and remodeling homes, buying health care, etcetera.

Veronica Navarro and Victor Alcazar are organizing distribution of information to the Mexican citizenry. This is - I think - an inclusive activity.