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Post by hickton on Sat May 25, 2013 7:32 am

slainte39 wrote:
Jim W wrote:I thought the GDL Reporter was a Canadian paper Blackeye

I think it is British owned...but not too many UK plated cars around.
Its difficult for us to drive from the uk. The car gets very wet...

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Post by Jim W on Sat May 25, 2013 7:41 am

I would think there are a very large number of illegal foreign plated being driven by Mexican Nationals that returned from NOB as well.

I recall reading on one of Spencers posts about someone being stopped 4 times returning to border with SAT letter.....no problem.

I wonder how they are profiling, by expired tags, South Dakota plates, or all foreign plates in general?
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Post by slainte39 on Sat May 25, 2013 11:02 am

hickton wrote:
slainte39 wrote:
Jim W wrote:I thought the GDL Reporter was a Canadian paper Blackeye

I think it is British owned...but not too many UK plated cars around.
Its difficult for us to drive from the uk. The car gets very wet...

Have they started on the tunnel yet? I'll guess we'll know when those black cabs start showing up. Very Happy

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Post by Playaboy on Sat May 25, 2013 2:00 pm

Jim W wrote:I would think there are a very large number of illegal foreign plated being driven by Mexican Nationals that returned from NOB as well.

I recall reading on one of Spencers posts about someone being stopped 4 times returning to border with SAT letter.....no problem.

I wonder how they are profiling, by expired tags, South Dakota plates, or all foreign plates in general?

I was the person that got stopped 4 times and checked for papers. 3 of the stops were normal retens. They all asked for my paperwork and I had the car thoroughly searched once.

The 4th stop was on Hwy 57 by a Federale. He was only interested in my paperwork. He did not believe my papers were valid. I don't think he had ever seen a Returno Seguro. He threatened to impound the car. I convinced him to call his Jefe to verify everything. He did, the Jefe confirmed I was good and the officer apologized for my delay and sent me on my way. He was very professional. I am glad I had all the proper paperwork.

My OPINION is that the authorities are becoming more aware of the new INM laws and will be checking foreign plated vehicles more closely everywhere in Mexico.


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Post by espíritu del lago on Sat May 25, 2013 2:21 pm

I agree playa..
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Post by CHILLIN on Sat May 25, 2013 4:50 pm

[quote="Playaboy" My OPINION is that the authorities are becoming more aware of the new INM laws and will be checking foreign plated vehicles more closely everywhere in Mexico. [/quote]

That's pretty hilarious! What you have at work here is fear and gossip, based on an accidental grey area of law, where, as always, when pushed for an interpretation - bureaucrats know they can never be fired for saying "No", but they can for saying "Yes". In 2005 local attorney Lic. Adriana Perez got in the middle of a "crisis" where the Federales had seized 3 vehicles in Nayarit. By the next day it was all around Vallarta that anybody with an FM3 was getting their car impounded - there were 200 so far. People were screaming to their consulates. It turned out all three incidents were Mexicans driving gringo cars without the owner present. All cars were returned with a small fine - since that day, no one is questioning TIPS and Visas in Puerto Vallarta or West Nayarit - it's a taboo subject, it affects tourism, creates a mountain of paperwork.

Why would an honest, hard working Transito or Federale care about this? What about saving lives - proper insurance, seat belts, insecure loads, drunk drivers, kid seats, helmets, vehicles leaking gasoline, parts falling of vehicles, stolen vehicles - you know, the important stuff? Police work?

Also remember the Doctor at Chapala IMSS who was interpreting the law that foreigners were to be handled as voluntary members, and had only limited access to the system. She was interpreting the actual law. Her higher ups said that may be true, but we did not give you permission to enforce this part of the law. That is an important lesson in Mexico.

It will be sorted. If nationalization gives you peace of mind - it is money well spent. The only advantage I can see is if you plan to sell or trade in the car at some point down the line.
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Post by casi nada on Sun May 26, 2013 8:36 am

CHILLIN wrote:
That's pretty hilarious! What you have at work here is fear and gossip, based on an accidental grey area of law, where, as always, when pushed for an interpretation - bureaucrats know they can never be fired for saying "No", but they can for saying "Yes"

This is directly taken from a letter written by Aduana a couple of months ago:

From Section 4,

A. La condición de estancia de ''RESIDENTE PERMANENTE'', no se encuentra comprendida en el articulo 106 fracción IV, inciso a) de la Ley Aduanera ni en Regla 4.2.7. de las Reglas de Carácter General en Materia de Comercio Exterior vigentes.

B. Asimismo, la condición de estancia de ''Residente Permanente'', (antes Inmigrado) otorga al extranjero la oportunidad de residir en Territorio Nacional por tiempo indeterminado, esto es, que tiene la posibilidad de residir definitivamente en el pais, lo que contrapone con el régimen de importacion temporal, (bajo el que ingresó su vehículo al país).............

It sounds to me that it is a little more serious than ''fear and gossip''.

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Post by CHILLIN on Sun May 26, 2013 9:56 am

Well - there you go. Don't forget that eating bacon causes cancer!

That is an opinion, it has no law to back it up and no way to end up in the laps of on the ground Transitos or Federales. They don't even have the ability to run license tags through a database!
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Post by Intercasa on Sun May 26, 2013 12:14 pm

There is the law and practice and if push comes to shove they will check with the authority who is not gringo friendly. This is a big issues and they have almost annoyed me to the point where I am tempted to do a class action amparo and yesterday at class talked to the heads of my bar association and think I can get them on board for this project.

Right now getting retorno seguro isn't like winding your watch unless you consider making 3 sets of documents (the list changes weekly) and 2 round trips to Guadalajara easy. Also some people have unique situations and need to be able to have that explained in Spanish to the tax authority guy who is serious and talks very fast and expects everybody to instantly understand his application of a host of federal laws. As the transitos cannot run your tags (they soon will be able to!) they have some latitude in trying to figure out what to do with you.
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Post by CHILLIN on Sun May 26, 2013 12:34 pm

Spencer - we still have to get together some time.

I can tell you are a very smart guy, and don't think for a second that I, like everyone else around here, really appreciates your help and advise on the car and immigration matters. The trouble is that these matters are not good meals for your career and pocketbook. You should be specializing more into property law, especially ejidos, and especially private international law (conflicts of law) where your U.S. contacts and knowledge are unique and will be sought out.

The problem is they have ended up with a sort of rule which has the exact opposite outcome of what it is intended to do. The goal of the new immigration laws is to bring fairness to foreigners traveling though Mexico (mostly from Central America) and to attract people to immigrate to Mexico to fill key positions. Most of these people will be in the U.S.A. or Mexico, most of these people will have cars and pets, and will have to enter Mexico by car. Many of them will be U.S. or Canadian citizens, but with family in Mexico.

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Post by casi nada on Sun May 26, 2013 3:51 pm

CHILLIN wrote:
The goal of the new immigration laws is to bring fairness to foreigners traveling though Mexico (mostly from Central America) and to attract people to immigrate to Mexico to fill key positions.

Could you show me the relevant statutes that corroborates the ''goal'' you stated above?

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Post by Intercasa on Sun May 26, 2013 5:10 pm

While little involving foreigners locally is worth my personal time, I run a business and have 9 people working for me, my job is to figure things out and create a system and then the others can prepare papers and my personal time is only needed in rare cases. I am investing time now to then be able to have others handle these issues for Retorno Seguro without my intervention just like we do for immigration, seguro popular, and other things. In order to teach others how to do it, I need to know it inside and out and have the contacts to get things done in the event something needs special attention.
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Post by OasisCloud on Sun May 26, 2013 7:39 pm

Jim W wrote:
I wonder how they are profiling, by expired tags, South Dakota plates, or all foreign plates in general?

We just drove up to Texas and back through Laredo over the past two weeks. On the way up, we only had one "incident" on the new bypass around San Luis Potosi. We were about in the middle of the bypass and passed two San Luis Potosi police cars parked on the side. We weren't speeding, but shortly after one of the police cars pulled up behind us with his lights on.

The policeman came up, and the first question that he asked me was "do you have your letter" (in Spanish) and pointed at my TIP sticker on the windshield. My FM3 is still valid for 2 more months and I didn't really get his question at first, so I pulled out the usual explanation in Spanish of the law about the TIP being valid as long as your FM3 is valid. He looked at that and then asked to see my drivers license and then waived me on.

When the policeman that questioned me was returning to his vehicle his partner that had stayed back at the car asked him something that I didn't hear, but the man that had question me answered "he has an FM3".

It was a fairly "simple" encounter, but thinking about the situation afterwards it seems to me that they were likely phishing for someone driving a us plated car that was no longer legal (permente). His first question was "do you have your letter" and afterwards I wondered if he was referring to the "seguro retorno" that someone with a permenente needs t return to the border.

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Post by Intercasa on Sun May 26, 2013 8:17 pm

Could be one of the hundreds of letters we have done where people notified aduana about getting a new immigration document, aduana's response or the retorno seguro.
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Post by CHILLIN on Mon May 27, 2013 12:04 pm

It would be interesting what your law professor has to say about ex post facto laws in Mexico. These are new laws which are drawn up for something which was legal in the past. Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden under Article 14 of the Mexican Constitution. The new permanent resident laws are clearly ex post facto - they force you to comply and then punish you by seizing your vehicle. This was not the situation one year ago - I could, at my discretion, change to immigrant status after 4 years, and I could keep my vehicle as long as paid the annual visa fee.
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Post by Bob Bender on Mon May 27, 2013 2:55 pm

CHILLIN wrote:It would be interesting what your law professor has to say about ex post facto laws in Mexico. These are new laws which are drawn up for something which was legal in the past. Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden under Article 14 of the Mexican Constitution. The new permanent resident laws are clearly ex post facto - they force you to comply and then punish you by seizing your vehicle. This was not the situation one year ago - I could, at my discretion, change to immigrant status after 4 years, and I could keep my vehicle as long as paid the annual visa fee.

This may have already been mentioned in another post but I wasn't aware anyone is forced to apply for permanent status, there is the option of temporary available to them.

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Post by CHILLIN on Mon May 27, 2013 3:30 pm

After four years of a temporary visa you have to go permanent, or leave the country. If you want to renew the temporary in Mexico you have to do it once a year. Maybe - all the offices have to go on is a poorly worded manual, leaving a lot of questions - so each office is fumbling along, making stuff up as they go along.
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Post by Intercasa on Mon May 27, 2013 5:26 pm

Yes, ex post facto is not proper but then again, one need to spend $$$$ to do an amparo. It all boils down to time and money, who has the time and who can pay.
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Post by Jim W on Mon May 27, 2013 5:49 pm

If you don't go permanente when you are out of options, what are your choices? Go underground? My understanding is you could go tourist, but no more extensions, beyond 6 months per year? Also Mexico may start monitoring visitations by those refusing to go permanente.....is this possible?
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Post by merry on Mon May 27, 2013 6:16 pm

Once you go permanente, are you allowed to drive a spouse or family member's car who is NOT on a permanente?

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Post by Jim W on Mon May 27, 2013 6:35 pm

I am....making ASS sumption, but the only time I can drive it is with her doing the backseat driving......I can't drive it without her and she is a FM3 holder.

Kinda like having a learners permit Merry
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Post by Intercasa on Mon May 27, 2013 10:13 pm

Yes family of importers can drive their cars even without importer in car and regardless of their status, i.e permanente ok and Mexican citizens ok
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Post by David on Mon May 27, 2013 10:30 pm

I think if it's a foreign-plated vehicle that MX citizens can drive only if owner is in the car. Correct?
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Post by Intercasa on Mon May 27, 2013 11:06 pm

Mexican citizens can drive family member´s foreign plated cars without them present.
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Post by merry on Tue May 28, 2013 7:52 am

Intercasa wrote:Yes family of importers can drive their cars even without importer in car and regardless of their status, i.e permanente ok and Mexican citizens ok

Woo hoo! You ALWAYS cut through all the BS, Intercasa! Mil gracias.

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Post by Playaboy on Fri May 31, 2013 8:57 am

CHILLIN wrote:[quote="Playaboy" My OPINION is that the authorities are becoming more aware of the new INM laws and will be checking foreign plated vehicles more closely everywhere in Mexico.

That's pretty hilarious! What you have at work here is fear and gossip, based on an accidental grey area of law, where, as always, when pushed for an interpretation - bureaucrats know they can never be fired for saying "No", but they can for saying "Yes". In 2005 local attorney Lic. Adriana Perez got in the middle of a "crisis" where the Federales had seized 3 vehicles in Nayarit. By the next day it was all around Vallarta that anybody with an FM3 was getting their car impounded - there were 200 so far. People were screaming to their consulates. It turned out all three incidents were Mexicans driving gringo cars without the owner present. All cars were returned with a small fine - since that day, no one is questioning TIPS and Visas in Puerto Vallarta or West Nayarit - it's a taboo subject, it affects tourism, creates a mountain of paperwork.

Why would an honest, hard working Transito or Federale care about this? What about saving lives - proper insurance, seat belts, insecure loads, drunk drivers, kid seats, helmets, vehicles leaking gasoline, parts falling of vehicles, stolen vehicles - you know, the important stuff? Police work?



Hilarious? I have done thousands of miles driving all over Mexico during the last 10 years. FYI, The police are starting to look more closely at foreign plated vehicles everywhere in Mexico. They are asking for papers. http://www.playa.info/playa-del-carmen-forum/69274-foreign-plated-vehicle-watch-out . (like most threads this one wanders a little, much like threads here do). Read about Oasisclouds experience in this thread

Quite a few police officers have Smart phones. They can access the internet and check you papers instantly. Have all your paper up to date and with you at all times and avoid potential problems with all those honest, hardworking police officers.

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