Re: what to do with NOB car now that I'm permanente

by seisdedos Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:37 pm

HelperGuy wrote:Zed is correct: You are personally responsible for damages in perpetuity for the actions of another in a vehicle that you have sold here if you cannot prove the sale, and prove that it was a legal sale. I've known my fair share of people who could not, and suffered horribly within the system here when accidents happened.

However, not too many of us here feel like scrounging around looking for proof for something everyone already knows, just because you don't believe it, seisdedos.

Yeah, I'll just take your word for it. Because everything people post on a message board is infallible.

by hound dog Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:41 pm

seisdedos wrote:My first response to hound dog did not deserve to be deleted. It was a legitimate question about something that has been repeated frequently on Mexico themed message boards and has no basis in fact.

You are NOT personally responsible for damages in perpetuity for the actions of another in a vehicle that you have sold here. If anyone feels that I am mistaken then I simply ask them to show the legal precedent and not internet hearsay.

For those of you naively tending to believe the above, let´s put it another way. When any of us came down here and crossed the border, we came in under temporary visas whether as tourists or temporary residents. In that process, the Mexican government, as an accomodation to us, allowed us to temporarily import our vehicles for our personal use while here and, if we did so we made a bonded promise that, at the end of the temporary visa period including any legally granted extensions, we would export that vehicle back to foreign soil. It is and always has been totally illegal for any of us under temporary residency visas to sell that temporarily imported vehicle in Mexico and, in order to sell it legally we MUST export it first or legally nationalize it if possible. If you sell it without first exporting it or nationalizing it, the sale is not recognized under Mexican law as you had no right to do so. It makes no difference whether or not you can prove you actually sold it as you are not legally allowed to sell it so there was no sale as far as Mexico is conscerned. Period. Therefore, legally, you still own that "temporarily" imported car until you export it or nationalize it and subsequently sell it. If you never export it you still own it and are responsible for it in perpetuity.

Once you become a permanent resident as have we, you must own a Mexican plated car as do we. As you are no longer a temporary resident you can no longer temporarily import an automobile for your personal temporary use while temporarily here because you are now permanently here and you are not a licensed automobile importer. So, if you sold a temporarily imported car you only think you sold it. You have performed an illegal act and actually, have defrauded the buyer by falsely warranting to the buyer that you had the right to sell it to him in the first place.

This is about as elementary as you can get.

by ferret Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:55 pm

Amen Dawg.
I believe it is written right on the back of the import sticker that it is illegal to sell the car in Mexico. Could someone who has an import sticker confirm this please?
I also believe that (for whatever reason) the rules and regs are different in Baja California.
Since you're looking for proof Seis, why don't you post a link to something legal that tells us differently than what we've read and been told.

by seisdedos Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:05 pm

ferret wrote:Amen Dawg.

Since you're looking for proof Seis, why don't you post a link to something legal that tells us differently than what we've read and been told.

One cannot prove a negative. But one can prove a positive. If it is as hound dog insists there will be a statute or legal ruling that proves it. Not the other way around.

I know first hand of a case where someone driving a car owned by another person was culpable in a fatal accident. The driver went to jail. The owner didn't.

by hound dog Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:05 pm

Joec writes:
Exactly as I understand it. I will do this when I sell my vehicle and pay the way for the person buying it, hotel and food to the border.[/quote]

That´s one solution, John if you really trust the buyer to actually follow your instructions and drive to the border, go to aduana at the border and actually export the car. The buyer would then need to re-import the car under the buyer´s name and return the paper work to you proving that the car, as having been imported by you, had been exported. I know from experience that you personally needn´t be there as long as the paperwork is in order and the buyer follows proper procedures. However, if you allow someone to drive to the border to do this without you actually being in the car with the buyer, that buyer must be an extranjero. It is illegal for a Mexican National to be driving your temporarily imported foreign car unless you are accompanying him/her as he/she is driving it. You must be in the car with the Mexican National at all times or that Mexican National is driving the car illegally and, no doubt, it might be impounded on the way to the border if he/she is caught and you will have some powerful ´splainin' to do.

Remember, when I sold my California plated vehicle to a Mexican National, I simply drove to Nuevo Laredo, went into aduana there, exported the vehicle, walked out of aduana and sold it to the buyer who had accompanied me to the border right there in the border free zone. These days, maybe there is another way to export the vehicle without going to the border but, however you do it, you must fulfill your promise to aduana that you will export that temporarily imported vehicle before you sell it . No way around it and they are very serious about this in a country with a huge glut of illegally imported vehicles.

by seisdedos Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:07 pm

hound dog wrote:
No way around it and they are very serious about this in a country with a huge glut of illegally imported vehicles.

Yeah mutt, that's why there are several million chocolates circulating the roads with impunity.

by ComputerGuy Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:47 pm

seisdedos wrote:
HelperGuy wrote:Zed is correct: You are personally responsible for damages in perpetuity for the actions of another in a vehicle that you have sold here if you cannot prove the sale, and prove that it was a legal sale. I've known my fair share of people who could not, and suffered horribly within the system here when accidents happened.

However, not too many of us here feel like scrounging around looking for proof for something everyone already knows, just because you don't believe it, seisdedos.

Yeah, I'll just take your word for it. Because everything people post on a message board is infallible.

I don't see YOU offering any proof to the contrary. What I do see is a majority of people who already know what's what, and you refuting them. Just like a Republican with a budget vote.

by gringal Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:57 pm

Sounds like what Seis is saying is "everybody's doing it". Which means nada, if you get caught in the spokes when the wheels are turning.

by sparks Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:03 pm

Zedinmexico wrote: So is Permanente Lucrativa the only perm catagory with the new system versus the Rentista/Lucrativa versions of FM2?

If the answer is yes I assume Lucrativa means we get work rights with our Permanente??

The only thing I have heard is that Permanente includes retirees (renters/owners) and gives them the right to work. It's one classification

Temporal and Permanente ... nada mas

by gravy Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:01 pm

Does anyone know (for sure) that it's legal to donate you NOB car to the red cross ?

by Trailrunner Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Yes, Gravy, people have donated their cars and left their cars to Cruz Roja in the past. We would be happy to have it.

If you decide to do it, PM me and I'll put you in touch with Norm or you can contact Norm directly.

Thanks for thinking of Cruz Roja.

by Jim W Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 pm

Trailrunner wrote:Yes, Gravy, people have donated their cars and left their cars to Cruz Roja in the past. We would be happy to have it.

If you decide to do it, PM me and I'll put you in touch with Norm or you can contact Norm directly.

Thanks for thinking of Cruz Roja.

Gravy, You have 90 days, wait till Spencer gets more facts. You may find you've stressed over nothing, and at worst case you have the donation option as pointed out by Trailrunner.

by gringal Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:17 pm

I agree with Jim. Don't panic and act right now, then live to regret getting rid of your car. I recently heard of a couple who'd been here some years and heard they'd have to meet the worst of the financial speculations, which they couldn't, so they put their house up for sale. Now it turns out that if you've been here and have your visa, you're in without them.
So........just sit tight for a while. Things may well change. I don't know if anybody knows what's going to happen with the cars at this point.

by hound dog Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:18 pm

seisdedos wrote:
hound dog wrote:
No way around it and they are very serious about this in a country with a huge glut of illegally imported vehicles.

Yeah mutt, that's why there are several million chocolates circulating the roads with impunity.

No need to be cynical Bennie. Those "chocolates" are not typically being driven by little old English speaking retiree ladies from Dubuque living in a rooming house on social security benefits.

For those of you with a few assets here and there following Bennie´s advice and poo-pooing the law, go ahead and sell that illegally imported car and if you get caught up in this liability thing as a result and end up destitute in the street, you can hide the proceeds of the sale, such as they are, in your tattered socks so that you can enjoy the occasional tortilla with a few beans on a Saturday night in your tarpaper lean-to down on skid row hoping the rain doesn´t leak in and spoil your weekly feast.

By the way, my advice on this subject came, not from the internet but from my Mexican attorney a few years ago when I was trying to find a way to sell a California plated car without going to the border. I went to the border twice to export and sell two separate cars based on his advice. The first car I sold to Carmax in San Antonio, TX and the second to my Mexican buddy in Nuevo Laredo. You can make it from Lakeside to Nuevo Laredo or Laredo in one day if you leave early or stop off in the late afternoon in the historic center of San Luis Potosí for the night, stay in a nice old colonial hotel and enjoy dinner there. If you are going to have to do this, might as well enjoy it.

by CHILLIN Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:47 pm

This is a big problem for the Mexican government. It is also politically charged. The southern U.S.A seems to have a huge surplus of good condition used cars and trucks at a very low cost. Mexico, I am told by Mexicans, has a shortage of reliable used vehicles in the lower price range (let's say $3,000 U.S.). The government's own estimate puts the number around 2 million chocolate vehicles in Mexico. The way around is to pay a annual fee to OMAPFA, who will attempt to import the car, but most importantly, they file an injunction every year that Aduana cannot seize the car while this is in process. You can do this for five years. The other is UCD who again represents campesinos, they have been successful in a number of states to get Mexican plates. There is a long post on Mexconnect about this. I know a business owner in Puerto Vallarta who is using ONAFFA plates, and he has never been stopped or questioned. If you sell the car to a Mexican resident there is a special government registered form that the buyer agrees to take on all liability. If the government starts seizing and selling autos, they will end up with the largest used car lot in the world. If they auction them off - they will have to Mexican register each one of them. If they scrap them - it will make a huge mess. There will soon be a affordable solution - there are a lot of people, mostly in the countryside, who rely on a vehicle to work, or get to work. Most Mexican lawyers will have little or no experience working with the campesino organizations - there is no money in it.

by gravy Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:09 pm

so , where do I find "OMAPFA" and what does it stand for ? ...........available to gringos ? .........how much does it cost

by CHILLIN Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:11 pm

Here's the post on Mexconnect by lovingmexico. Notice that you can not drive in Guadalajara

If your vehicle is between 2005 and 1994 most states have an organization that let's you plate them to keep them legal. Here I will explain:

UCD (La Unión Campesina Democrática)

UCD is an association of campesinos who combine efforts to improve conditions and advocating for the working poor and farmers etc, buy seeds, farming, irrigation, home improvements, making less expensive foreign vehicles legal, government liaison / support for their causes, etc. UCD or similar organizations can be found in most states in Mexico. In some of those states including Chihuahua and Oaxaca etc. they now have a program to allow these vehicles (only those NAFTA made) to be nationalized for a low fee. That is the goal here as well and the meeting with the governor is Feb 4, 2013. If this happens, those in other states without such a program can drive to a state with this program. Get your plates in 15 minutes and then nationalize there for about 3-4000 pesos.

In San Miguel if a foreign plated car (even those made outside a NAFTA country such as Europe or Asia) is between 2005 and 1994 one can obtain a UCD permit that looks like a license plate. As of July 2012, it costs 600 pesos and 25 pesos a month and months can be prepaid. For a second person to drive the vehicle the card is another 50 pesos. At the end of the year or beginning of the new year for 200 pesos the plate and sticker will be renewed. The car can be driven throughout nearly all of Mexico including Queretaro except the very largest cities such as Guadalajara, Monterrey and Mexico City. Bancomer sells car insurance specific for UCD plated vehicles.

This removes all issues regarding car permits which will be no longer necessary. And, it allows an expat to sell a foreign-plated car of these model years without making a trip to the border or having to nationalize the seller's car.

These car permits are prominent here in SMA and throughout Guanajuato state and can be seen on windshields and where one usually places the back license plate.

IhVE

by CHILLIN Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:23 pm

I also read recently in Milenio, considered by many to be a reliable source, that the new government is introducing a regularization bill which will limit the import/legalization cost to a maximum of 10 percent of the vehicle's book value.

Here is the onappfa organization http://onappafa.net/oficinas.php You would best to bring a Mexican friend and your best manners, they will not be equipped to deal with english only speakers and politically they are one step away from the dreaded commynists Shocked

by sparks Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:46 pm

Who's book and that link doesn't work

by Intercasa Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:58 pm

Also beware some of the programs with the peasant groups for cars have restrictions on where the car can be driven, i.e. maybe only in Chapala but not to Guadalajara.

by sundown Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:03 am

Thanks Spencer, and I also would tend to believe tnat very few Police would understand these placas , & would threaten to confiscate the vehicle,
AND, we know the "Rest of the Story"

by CHILLIN Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:16 am

Don't ask me - I don't believe I will have to worry about it. They are awfully close to passing some new registration laws. Here is the ONAPPFA place in Puerto Vallarta that got the temporary plates and then full registration -ask them.

what to do with NOB car now that I'm permanente - Page 2 Aduanavallarta

what to do with NOB car now that I'm permanente - Page 2 Aduanavallarta

by hound dog Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:47 am

Oh, now I get it, if I had a U,S, plated car I could have it nationalized under a program meant to help campesinos even though I am an American, have never lived on a farm nor ever grown anything except for some radishes when I was in the 4th grade for a 4-H project and I can drive that car with that special sticker some places but it is illegal for me to drive it in other places. Makes sense to me. Thank God I drive a Jalisco plated car and have since 2004. Those California plates I drove down here with in 2001 were nothing but a pain in the butt and attracted Mexico City and Guadalajara cops like a red flag to a bull. I can see me being pulled over and explaining that sticker to some transit cop out for mordida with my broken Spanish.

by CHILLIN Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:18 am

I believe you are being somewhat myopic HD - Canadians cannot sell their cars in the U.S.A., it involves a long, arduous journey through a country which has taken intimidating policing to one of the highest art forms in the world, and even the simplest accident can cost many thousands in hospital and legal fees.

Then there is the issue of the Mexican government telling perspective immigrants, "Yes you can keep your car for four years, then you will have to register it if you want to go the full immigrant route - Yes, Mexico welcomes high quality immigrants, we know it is a competitive 'market'. Then to find, less than two years later, "Ergh, we changed our minds, and we never did really figure out the registration thingey"". In the business world that is clearly a case of "bait and switch" - maybe someone should complain to PROFECO.

All governments love cash - two million vehicles out there paying an average $2,500 peso each for registration, a fat pigeon ready for plucking. Likewise, ONAPPAFA has have found a way to legalize vehicles in Jalisco, the advert clearly shows, for them, that's where the money is - the political stuff is a smokescreen, albeit completely genuine and heartfelt.

The sticker protects you from Aduana seizure while the legalization is in progress, nothing will protect you from a crooked transito except nerves of steel, wasting a lot of their time, all while being respectful and friendly. Anyone who beats a couple mordida attempts should be sent to the United Nations as a special envoy/troubleshooter.

by viajero Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:39 am

CHILLIN wrote: nothing will protect you from a crooked transito except nerves of steel, wasting a lot of their time, all while being respectful and friendly.

That strategy has worked for me on a number of occasions in my 7 years driving in GDL with expired NoB plates,it helps if you can speak Spanish,that said I would have zero confidence in one of those onappafa stickers on a vehicle driven by a gringo.

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