Love in Action

Good grief, just reviewed the Deep Water web site. Kari is Doug's (the pastors) wife and they have three children aged 16, 10 and 9. Wow...

It s interesting to see that neither the Mexican government nor the Catholic church or community seem to be bothered by it so why are the foreigners up in arms about it?

I have two thoughts. First there are many organizations helping local children and we all have the choice to decide where our pesos go and where we volunteer our time.

Second. They are not exactly telling their "flock" (read money source) the truth but are asking them to send enough money for the family to live on. "Unfortunately, the government of Mexico will not allow us to get jobs once we move down there. Actually, the USA has the same restrictions to non US citizens coming into our country with only a temporary visa. And to get a resident visa, we must live there for 5 years. So, your support actually provides means for a family of five to live in Mexico, and also to do ministry."

Last time I checked, you can start a business or get a work permit visa, if sponsored by a company, right away not after 5 years. They claim to have sold a house and a profitable business NOB.

RoofBob wrote:Good grief, just reviewed the Deep Water web site. Kari is Doug's (the pastors) wife and they have three children aged 16, 10 and 9. Wow...

The"How does your support help" in the last paragraph in the FAQ section of their website is interesting.

brigitte wrote:It s interesting to see that neither the Mexican government nor the Catholic church or community seem to be bothered by it so why are the foreigners up in arms about it?

That's right Brigitte, the Mexican government has approved & welcomed the shelter, along with the other 3 Christian shelters in and around the lakeside area presently in operation.

What's ironic, is that LiA is now where it was when it started it's missions. So who imposed on whom? Who had to change wording a year ago, according to GR? I guarantee you it wasn't Anabel, the founder. LiA is where it's suppose to be. Better to be upfront than try and skirt what your ministry believes, right? That's what others were trying to do.

6 a.m. prayer & Bible study has always been the way the shelter started it's day, from the beginning. Yes, Christians pray. God bless this day, keep us safe from danger and harm. Use us for Your glory. Help us to be loving and understanding of others. Help us to be like You. Forgive us of the wrong things we've done and be forgiving towards others. Help my mom and dad to find work and know you love them and have a bright future for us, we put our trust and hope in You." That's something like a real Christian would pray. Children love to know that God really loves them and their family and He doesn't desire that any harm come to them. And how it breaks His heart when others mistreat one another. Don't try to make it more complicated than it is. Yes, of course the children go to school. Although, some may run away, they aren't forced to stay but they do care about their well being. It was a heart break when two brothers ran away. I even found one in La Floresta one day. The brothers I'm referring to murdered a man in riberas a year or so ago. They chose to not go to school and ran away. What kind of future did they lead up to alone? You need to realize that the children are presented with an option to their situation of abuse and neglect. How about someone really demonstrate how Jesus loves the little children with purity. The same Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary. A shame, but not a surprise, there are plenty of counterfeit Christians. I could look at you and tell you I'm a tree, but you could look at me & know that I'm not. If I tell you I'm a Christian, and I'm not acting Christ like, than you can draw the obvious conclusion that I'm not.

It is what it is folks. It's a Christian Children's Shelter. Love in action.

...and now people can chose to overlook the religion and support the LIA for the children or chose to withdraw their money because they do not agree with the religious education the children receive or start another shelter.

Flamingo, They have permission to volunteer with LiA through an invitation that came from Anabel & are processing their temporary paper work to permanent. Their visa will be a ministers visa with a denomination in Mexico. If a minister goes outside of the ministry to work at Black Coffee, then he has to change his visa from a ministry visa to a work visa through an invitation to work under Black Coffee. Our sons had to do this process when they found work here in Mexico.

Guaranteed, missionaries will need to budget their money to both have housing and ministry expenses. If there are people that want to support their ministry, they are aware that the people have to live and are willing to help them with living expenses and trust they are being wise stewards with their money when it comes to helping others. When people give to our ministry, be it the feeding ministry, we ask them to make note that the offering is for the feeding ministry and 100% of their donation goes towards the feeding ministry. If you make a donation to LiA towards building repairs than 100% is obligated to go towards building repairs and not personal expenses for living here. I think there's enough people that have been in and out of LiA to see that people, such as Anabel & her family do not live in a lap of luxury, nor have any of it's staff, as far as I know. I know years ago, while dropping off rice & beans, Anabel asked me if one of the workers could have some because they had nothing at the time. Of course it was alright, I trust them. She's not interested in selfish gain but it's always been about the kids.

If they had the means over in abundance, I'm sure they wouldn't be out fundraising.

brigitte wrote:...and now people can chose to overlook the religion and support the LIA for the children or chose to withdraw their money because they do not agree with the religious education the children receive or start another shelter.

You are right on!!! It's about the kids & how to bring them some joy in this world.

I'm glad Lori chimed in and called a "spade a spade" on this. It was time.

I was sent to Catholic school back in the day. At some point during my early adulthood, I rejected organized religion and went my own way. Meanwhile, I received a very good education under S'ter Mary Rulermaster and her fellows and Hey.......I can spell!

I don't think the kids are going to be damaged by getting the religious part of the deal. They will grow up and some will go on with it and some may sign up for another faith and some become non-religious altogether.

My only reservation is in how transparent the accounting is. As long as the books show the income and outgo correctly, and nobody is getting any "under the table" pay......and as long as they're on the up and up with Mexican law.........I don't have a problem with their operation.

As others have said.........you can always start your own orphanage.

Your childhood stories are always enjoyable to read, painful, but put in a humorous light gringal.

If your only reservation is how transparent the accounting is, and you're wanting to make a donation, why not go and talk to them? Why talk about on a public forum where they're not here to answer questions? It only fuels doubts and discourages others from potentially helping the kids. Especially, if it shouldn't be a concern. Seems the same person reporting this was the same that emphatically stated falsely about what's been happening at 6 a.m. from the beginning. Kinda makes me doubt the source, no? Well, it does me if doesn't you.

To start off with: what Brigitte said!

Personally, I happen to be extremely cynical when it comes to charity in any form and that includes humanitarian or foreign aid. I have yet to see a single charity that comes free of any agenda - be they religious, political, ethical or pure greed. Additionally, one of the biggest challenges is to find one whose books can stand up to intense scrutiny. When it comes to foreign aid, forget the books since these efforts are just considered to be money down the drain. Most are designed to either give people a "feel good feeling" or some sort of tax write off.

The tragedy are the kids but when adults with ulterior motives of any type - the tragedy can become far worse.

This is a difficult question for me because, on the one hand I think the work is necessary and laudable but, on the other hand, I see taking advantage of people in need in order to further a dogmatic agenda as being pretty darn close to evil.

I don't actually believe in "evil" as a force in the Universe but this comes pretty close, in my view.

I DO wish there was a non-sectarian alternative to support. Morning Prayers are one thing, I suppose, but Morning Bible Study is quite another when one considers the perverted view-point of those conducting such "study".

Gringal (someone I deeply respect) is able to set aside her misgivings for the sake of the work being done. I am not.

Thanks to one of our supporters, we sent 86 people (76 teens, 10 adults) to a 3 day conference in Guanajuato, Mexico. God completely changed their hearts! Thanks for supporting us! — at Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico.


This is from the Facebook page dated August 2

https://www.facebook.com/deeperwaterministries


Rgardless of the desire to expose these teenagers to Gods word and regardless that someone paid for this it would be clear to ANY fundraising professional to have refused such a stipulated donation on the principle that the institutions physical plant itself needs faucets and plumbing and roof work. That it would impossible to justify to longstanding donors and new donors the expense of such a trip even if it were paid for. A seasoned fundraiser would have negotiated to perhaps have used the donation to take 10 teenagers and 3 adults in a van and used the balance to see to the basic needs of the institution.

Same with another post by a volunteer missionary fellow who chose not to repair the slide but wanted to remove it and appeal for someone to sponsor a new slide. Those expats here a long time recall the original playground equipment at the Ajijic Malecon. Steel slides are everywhere and it might have cost $250 pesos to get the ironworker with portable equipment out to LIA and repair the existing slide. Just because it didn't look safe to this volunteer doesn't mean it wasn't acceptable and functional.

Early on Shira tirelessly collected Soriana point cards for milk for LIA and the community usually answered her pleas quickly. There wasn't enough flatware to serve everyone on site, that need was filled immediately. Some of the couples and individuals who have removed themselves have been working with LIA for MANY years. They grew the orphanage by taking it into their hearts and devoting most of their time to its and the childrens needs.

They are uncomfortable. For me that pretty much says it all.

Here's a quote from the Deeper Waters website.

How does your support help?

Unfortunately, the government of Mexico will not allow us to get jobs once we move down there. Actually, the USA has the same restrictions to non US citizens coming into our country with only a temporary visa. And to get a resident visa, we must live there for 5 years. So, your support actually provides means for a family of five to live in Mexico, and also to do ministry.

By no means will we live like we lived in the United States. But it'll be something that is nice, yet safe. Living in a big city as a foreigner, it's extremely important that we find a residence that is in a safe area. But in the end...God will be our guard!

Where's this "big city" these folks are going to be living in? San Antonio, Jalisco?

....as I said, "transparent accounting"....and I agree with Solajic's post.

I don't know what went on, but I know some of the hardworking, dedicated people who left.......and can't help but have my doubts. These people have big hearts and the best of intentions. They are better people than I am.

So, in answer to Ajijic: In this case, it's kind of "hold your nose" and think of hungry kids first.
I wish there were a non-sectarian facility.....but there isn't.

Chapalagringa wrote:Your childhood stories are always enjoyable to read, painful, but put in a humorous light gringal.

If your only reservation is how transparent the accounting is, and you're wanting to make a donation, why not go and talk to them? Why talk about on a public forum where they're not here to answer questions? It only fuels doubts and discourages others from potentially helping the kids. Especially, if it shouldn't be a concern. Seems the same person reporting this was the same that emphatically stated falsely about what's been happening at 6 a.m. from the beginning. Kinda makes me doubt the source, no? Well, it does me if doesn't you.

My childhood stories shouldn't be painful. I had a great childhood with loving parents, encouragement for my creative interests and a good education. No kid with an independent streak enjoys school, and the nuns didn't mess around with my natural tendency to either stare out the window or make trouble (which I did). So, I describe those years with humor. Sister Mary Rulermaster is a figment of my fertile imagination. My fondest memory is of my first grade teacher; a little sweetheart of a nun who couldn't have been much taller than the kids and wouldn't have taken a ruler to the rowdiest of us.

There's no reason people with questions can't get answers from those running the LIA on this forum. It's free, and assuming they wouldn't be using bad language, nobody will censor their posts. You can answer some of the questions since I assume you're involved with the group on some level.

If the kids don't have Bible Study first thing in the morning......say so. Don't be shy.

gringal wrote:Here's a quote from the Deeper Waters website.

How does your support help?

Unfortunately, the government of Mexico will not allow us to get jobs once we move down there. Actually, the USA has the same restrictions to non US citizens coming into our country with only a temporary visa. And to get a resident visa, we must live there for 5 years. So, your support actually provides means for a family of five to live in Mexico, and also to do ministry.

By no means will we live like we lived in the United States. But it'll be something that is nice, yet safe. Living in a big city as a foreigner, it's extremely important that we find a residence that is in a safe area. But in the end...God will be our guard!

Where's this "big city" these folks are going to be living in? San Antonio, Jalisco?

....as I said, "transparent accounting"....and I agree with Solajic's post.

I don't know what went on, but I know some of the hardworking, dedicated people who left.......and can't help but have my doubts. These people have big hearts and the best of intentions. They are better people than I am.

So, in answer to Ajijic: In this case, it's kind of "hold your nose" and think of hungry kids first.
I wish there were a non-sectarian facility.....but there isn't.

You're so silly. Keep digging using google and you'll find your answer. From my understanding, originally, they headed to Guadalajara, and probably the site hasn't been updated since they moved down here in the past year or so. Shall we be shocked together! I just don't see anything shocking about what she wrote...it's like desperately looking for something to hate them for. lol She appears to be a very sweet & transparent person.

I do understand the concern of those of you who feel the kids might not fit in with the majority culture if they are raised in a minority religion. But Kari's stats of 3% evangelical believers are outdated. The Catholic Church isn't the only game in town any more.

http://www.economist.com/node/21551091

http://www.pri.org/stories/politics-society/religion/evangelical-christians-on-the-rise-in-catholic-mexico-9117.html

How many of us followed lock-step into the belief system of our parents? I didn't. My kids didn't. These kids won't either, unless they want to.

It is so much easier to tear down than to build up. You can get that lovely self-righteous holier-than-thou feeling (or is it more-rational-than-thou?) without actually being holy/rational/whatever, and without doing anything constructive at all. Three cheers for the many people of many belief systems who are able to look past that scary "Christian" word and support LiA in its efforts to provide a home and upbringing to these kids.

For anyone who has a better alternative in mind - what are you waiting for? Start building it!

Well, as the old saying goes "put up or shut up" right now the work needs doing. There will always be differing opinions, even though the playground equipment could be fixed another wanted new, but I bet in end the smiles from the kids really was important. Now what really needs attention is repair and maintenance so if it is in your heart and pocketbook....pitch in and quit bitching.

Not shocking, really? Referring to the Advisory Council as "the enemy" was shocking. She removed it quickly after learning of the mass exodus the LiA's biggest donors. However it was already too late. I know several of those good hearted donors who contributed thousands of dollars every year to LiA. Yes, THOUSANDS. That source of funds has now dried up. All because someone's ego and dogma got in the way. Alienating your biggest donors is not the way to "help" an organization.

We don't need to "build a new one." There are many charities at Lakeside and several orphanages. I can't support all of them. Up until now I've concentrated my giving on LiA and Ninos Incapacitados. As for me, I'll not contribute another Peso to LiA. I'll select another children's charity to recieve what I formerlay gave to LiA. I'm guessing I'll not be the only one.

David's right... with them removing attacks like "the enemy" and couching their logic in more "comfortable" language, I'd be even more suspicious.

What if some others that were helping a while back, quietly stepped aside without making a public spectacle of themselves when newcomers came in and started "butting in." Maybe those that quietly stepped aside will come back. Maybe. It's a thought. It's like any office change. When office changes, people leave if they don't like the new administration and they stay or come back if they like it or after testing the waters they like it. Unfortunately, people get their feelings hurt when changes happen that they don't like. I've had my feelings hurt before when changes were made but I find something else to do. I just don't participate in it. If the place is in as bad repair as Coones reported, could it get much worse? Seems it can only get better.

I don't think their supporters are limiting them to only doing building repairs, in fact, if funds are going through their ministry, unless specified what exactly it is going towards their supporters trust them to be wise stewards of their money. I see accountability for their spending, they are reporting back to their supporters for what happened to the funds they sent. We don't know if they sent out a special email asking for sponsors for the retreat. There's nothing there that should be any big deal. Once again, mark an offering for LiA building repairs, clothing for children or school supplies, food and they are obligated to use it for those needs. Undesignated funds are used at the discretion of the ministry.

Chapalagringa:
[quote]
You're so silly. Keep digging using google and you'll find your answer. From my understanding, originally, they headed to Guadalajara, and probably the site hasn't been updated since they moved down here in the past year or so. Shall we be shocked together! I just don't see anything shocking about what she wrote...[b]it's like desperately looking for something to hate them for. lol She appears to be a very sweet & transparent person."

What's with the "hate" stuff? Or the "shocking" stuff? Nonsense. I don't hate anyone and at this point, nothing much shocks me.

The only source of information about the group is on the web.
If you want to update it, please do so.

There are many people, including me, who have expressed approval of helping the kids whether we like the religious side of it or not.

If the group thinks it's necessary to send a couple of busloads to Guanajuato to get inspired........I think it's a waste of money that should have gone to more practical purposes, but I'm not coming from your point of view.....and I'm not dispersing the money, either. Fortunately, most of us are ignoring that and hoping the kids' needs are being dealt with, first and foremost.

So how about just being glad most us, with some exceptions, are focused on the kids, not the church?

Chapalagringa,

Are you a politician? If not, you should be. Your deceptions are phrased so sweetly, your true intent so cleverly disguised.

You want these kids to accept Christ as their personal saviour and you are willing to say almost anything to allow that to occur.

If it isn't so, say it isn't so.

Otherwise, you are nothing but a pimp for Christ.

HelperGuy wrote:David's right... with them removing attacks like "the enemy" and couching their logic in more "comfortable" language, I'd be even more suspicious.

I'm sure that using the terminology "the enemy" was and is always just that, the enemy the devil. People are not the enemy. The enemy brings discord, disagreements, and disunity. He can use people. Even me, if I were being nasty. Ask yourself was this phraseology used in a meeting with folks in general or was this a prayer request to their ministry supporters that know them and someone snooped around looking for something to be offended by? I'd have to say the latter. But correct me if I'm wrong. I wasn't there. When people feel their peace is robbed, they may say the enemy is trying to rob my peace. It doesn't mean that because their son is doing drugs and it concerns them that their son is the enemy. But rather, they feel the enemy is trying to destroy their son. So if they asked for prayer that the enemy not destroy the ministry. They were feeling discord, disagreements and disunity. A house divided cannot stand, right? Probably all of you have seen a church split. Were all those people the enemy? No, they weren't but the enemy got in there and they turned against one another and it split.

Axixic, jajaja Of course I want everyone to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. But it's not my choice. I respect others and have read and gathered that many people down here from the states have had really horrible experiences with "Christians" that really weren't Christians at all. I'm far from politician.

If your intent is to have these children accept Christ as their personal saviour then your true intent is NOT to help but to convert.

You are a bad person. Period. Full stop. Nothing more to be said.

Leave them kids alone.

[quote="gringal"]Chapalagringa:

You're so silly. Keep digging using google and you'll find your answer. From my understanding, originally, they headed to Guadalajara, and probably the site hasn't been updated since they moved down here in the past year or so. Shall we be shocked together! I just don't see anything shocking about what she wrote...[b]it's like desperately looking for something to hate them for. lol She appears to be a very sweet & transparent person."

What's with the "hate" stuff? Or the "shocking" stuff? Nonsense. I don't hate anyone and at this point, nothing much shocks me.

The only source of information about the group is on the web.
If you want to update it, please do so.

There are many people, including me, who have expressed approval of helping the kids whether we like the religious side of it or not.

If the group thinks it's necessary to send a couple of busloads to Guanajuato to get inspired........I think it's a waste of money that should have gone to more practical purposes, but I'm not coming from your point of view.....and I'm not dispersing the money, either. Fortunately, most of us are ignoring that and hoping the kids' needs are being dealt with, first and foremost.

So how about just being glad most us, with some exceptions, are focused on the kids, not the church?

I don't think we've mentioned anything about hate gringal. I was teasing about the shock that they were moving to a big city and landed in SAT. That's all. ok you may not have even said shock, it was the smily & I read shock while typing my post.