The students were burned alive

confused wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Thanks Ricardo for the rational input here. There are a number of investigations under way. Eventually, there will be facts rather than speculation. In the meantime, let's try not to get caught up in the mass hysteria engendered by this horrific event.

And who's facts will you believe?  

alex only believes present gov't approved "facts" as he has noted many times.

The government has said the total of bodies found at the first site, where there were five graves, is 30 rather than 28 as first reported. Their DNA tests eliminate these as being the students but independent tests by Argentinian experts are not back yet. Of the numerous other graves that have been found, the last reported statements from authorities are that it is obvious the graves are too old and the bodies too long dead to be the students. They have never made clear exactly how many other bodies have been found.

How many people (police and others...Guerreros Unidos) have been detained so far. I thought I read that it was 50 some. The presidente and his wife are still on the run.

Horrifying and sad.

The feds have taken control of Iguala. The entire police force was arrested and the Gendarmeria has taken over their duties. The government asked for help from the public in locating the missing students...or their remains. Investigators were deluged with leads, resulting in the discovery of several mass grave sites. One of those sites contained a pile of human bones that showed signs of having been burned before burial. However, none of these graves seem to be those of the missing students.

Actually Ricardo it is not really clear how many graves with bodies they have found or how many bodies, the stories seems to vary,
They did say that beside the first grave they found 28 burned bodies, the grave at frist was too old to be that of the students and the preleminary results of the tests indicated they were not the bodies of the students.
Then they  they found 30 bodies in 9 graves. Not sure if they have results on those.
Originaly it was reported that they had found 19 graves but some of them were empty..it is all confusing and vague and changes.
I do not see why they have a clear tally.
So many graves with bodies and an estimated number of bodies and so many empty graves, they do not seem to be able to even do that. Is that incompetence or confusing on purpose?
One thing there were more or less clear is that the first 28 bodies were not the bodies of the student. Against that story could change.
I do not trust the federal gvernment more than the guy who were there before. There are better but far from being perfect..
By the way that does not account for 43 either. If they found 28 or 30 where is the rest of the students and if these are not the students who are those people?
Maybe narcs , maybe people who were i the way for one reason or another..

Statements from federal spokesmen are quite clear that the total of bodies found so far is 30. They have not explicitly stated that they have dug up all the graves found so far.

http://www.zocalo.com.mx/seccion/articulo/en-vivo-conferencia-de-prensa-de-la-pgr-1414002652

México, D.F.- The Federal Attorney General Jesús Murillo Karam held a news conference to report on progress in investigations in the case of 43 school of education students who were kidnapped and are missing.

He stated in the conference another two bodies have been found in the graves discovered in Guerrero. With these two bodies the total comes to 30 in the nine graves that are known to exist at this time.

"the stories seem to vary"
That happens a lot whenever a crime is committed.....from Ferguson, MO, USA to Ottawa, Canada, depending on the reporters. Fact checking and confirmation by  second sources are not long suits of the reporting from Mexico.

This article gives as good a summary of the federal government's position on this case as you are likely to find in one spot. It is very long but I have translated the first half, which deals with the actual crime. The rest is mainly statements and demands by various officials and groups.

According to it, the entire municipal government was on the payroll of the New Warriors cartel and the mayor's wife ordered the police to see to it that the students did not interfere with her parade at a public event. Elsewhere federal spokespeople have said that according to their interrogation of the cartel leader "El Tucan" who was recently captured in Mexico City the students were killed because the cartel leaders involved believed that they belonged to an opposing group called "Los Rojos". It is hard to believe that even the most bloodthirsty criminal boss would have ordered something so counterproductive as the murder of 43 students (plus the six killed on the spot) just to keep them from demonstrating but it is not hard for me to believe that the sort of brainless beasts they use for underlings could have understood this to be their orders.    

The AG here says the DNA tests done so far were defective and that reliable ones have been done by the Argentinians but the results are not back yet. I don't see how the tests could be wrong in all 28 cases without deliberate malfeasance.

http://www.excelsior.com.mx/nacional/2014/10/23/988333

CIUDAD DE MÉXICO, 23 de octubre.- The Federal Department of Justice (PGR) has established that José Luis Abarca, at the time mayor of Iguala, his wife María de los Ángeles Pineda and Municipal Police Chief Felipe Flores are responsible for the disappearance of 43 students of education last September 26.

In a conference Attorney General Jesús Murillo Karam revealed that the married couple, who have not been located, are linked to the United Warriors, which derive from the Beltrán Leyva cartel, and that they provided this group with up to three million pesos per month.

He explained that the existence of the criminal network was established through statements by the recently apprehended Sidronio Casarrubias, boss of the United Warriors. With respect to the identity of the bodies in the graves that have been discovered, Murillo said that the Guerrero State Attorney General's office erred in taking samples and therefore he will wait for the results from the Argentinian experts.

According to the Attorney General the motive for the crime was that it was thought the students intended to boycott an event staged by María de los Ángeles for her report on the activities of the municipal Department for Integral Family Development (DIF).

Through the influence of his wife María de los Ángeles Pineda the ex-mayor of Iguala, José Luis Abarca Velázquez, exercised control of organized crime and financed the United Warriors group with payments of between two and three million pesos per month.

Attorney General Jesús Murillo Karam reported that investigations revealed the link between the Abarca-Pineda couple and the criminal organization, an heir to the activities of the Beltrán Leyva Cartel.

30 bodies have been found in nine graves

“According to statements from the arrested subjects and the leader of the group himself, the criminal organization regularly received--monthly, bimonthly or weekly--between two and three million pesos from the mayor. Of this amount at least 600 thousand, according to the financial operators themselves, was used to control the local police.

   “This leader of the United Warriors criminal organization identified Mrs. María de los Ángeles Pineda Villa, wife of the ex-mayor of Iguala, as the main boss who directed criminal activities from the City Hall--with the complicity, of course, of her husband José Luis Abarca and Police Chief Felipe Flores Velázquez”, stated Murillo Karam.

The official revealed that statements by Sidronio Casarrubias Salgado, the leader of the United Warriors who was arrested last Oct. 16, provided the first leads in clarifying the events of Sep. 26 in Iguala, Guerrero.

   “Also, as has been reported, Mrs. Pineda Villa is a direct relative of the financial managers of the group formerly directed by Arturo Beltrán Leyva”, stated the Attorney General.

Arturo Beltrán Leyva, leader of the drug cartel that bore his name, died in a confrontation with naval forces on Sep. 16, 2009 in Cuernavaca, Morelos.

María de los Ángeles Pineda Villa's brothers Mario "El MP" and Alfredo "El Borrado", were murdered in September of 2009.

Attorney General Murillo Karam reported that it was found there had been a violation of procedure by the Guerrero State Attorney General's office in taking samples for DNA tests of the thirty bodies found in nine graves in Pueblo Viejo.

He explained that due to this situation the results were negative in possibly establishing a link between the bodies and family members of the 43 missing students.

“Two expert examinations have been performed in relation to these graves. The first two, of which one was done by the PGR and the other by the Federal Police, were based on genetic samples delivered to us by the Guerrero State Attorney General's office. The results of those first two tests produced negative results in identifying the missing students."

   “The third expert examination is being performed by Argentinian forensic specialists who assisted in the investigation. They took samples directly from relatives of the students and we are awaiting the results. They will be crucial in corroborating the samples delivered to us by the state of Guerrero," said Murillo.

The disappearance

Attorney General Murillo Karam reported that according to statements from municipal police and United Warriors members Abarca and his wife and former Iguala Municipal Police Chief Felipe Flores Velázquez are responsible for the disappearance of the 43 students from Ayotzinapa.

The motive for the crime, he said, was that it was thought that the students intended to boycott the dance celebrating the report that María de los Ángeles had delivered about the activities of the municipal DIF.

   “The detained subjects stated that the the order to confront the people came by radio from Headquarters and they were told it was from “A-5”, the code name for the ex-mayor of Iguala”, explained the Attorney General.

Indications are that the Iguala municipal police were instructed to ask for assistance from the Cocula municipal police and that the call was responded to by that department's assistant chief César Nava, who also has ties with the United Warriors.

The attack by gunfire upon the Ayotzinapa students occurred while they were traveling in two trucks toward the downtown area, according to statements by persons in custody.

In another moment of confusion, the police and criminals attacked the truck in which the football team "Los Avispones de Chilpancingo" was traveling.

A group of students tried to escape but were detained by police and transferred to the Iguala police station, to which place uniformed Cocula officers came to remove them.

At that they time they were ordered onto a stake bed truck and a person identified as "El Gil" organized their transfer to a spot in Pueblo Viejo.

“The dirt road by which the group transported the illegally detained subjects was very well known by 'El Gil. He lives in that area, his residence is very close to the place where first six graves were found, and later a total of nine.

   “On October 9 the pickup was found in 'El Gil's' patio," he said.

Today Solalinde finally had his meeting with the Attorney General and emerged from it saying the information he had provided was "in 80% agreement" with what the AG already had and said that the map his sources had provided him was of the same locality where the army was searching.

http://www.milenio.com/policia/estudiantes_Ayotzinapa-Ayotzinapan_normalistas-Ayotzinapa_Guerrero-caso_Iguala_0_395960646.html

This from today's news quotes an Argentinian source as saying that "some" of the bodies cannot be ruled out as being "some" of the 43 missing students, based upon the DNA tests already done by the Mexican government. This seems to be the same as confirming that "some" of the bodies at least are not of students. The lab work for the Argentinians is being done in Virginia and it sounds like it will be some time before the results are ready.

http://www.argenpress.info/2014/10/mexico-peritos-argentinos-identifican.html

http://www.argenpress.info/2014/10/mexico-peritos-argentinos-identifican.html

As I am determined to try out living in Lake Chapala reading all these crime reports, police ripping off people for money for themselves and crossing the border attacks from whomever with guns, makes me wonder how I will feel in a country that doesn't have truly good police protection like we have in the US. While many on here say they feel safer in Lake Chapala, I have to ask how can you feel that way with all this stuff being true going on around you. Don't you dislike having to be stuck in Lake Chapala for fears of being pulled over by corrupt police outside of that area? Don't you feel afraid to go out at night if you are a 60 something woman, walking or driving? How do you all cope with living in a place if you don't speak fluent Spanish in situations like police pulling you over for nothing and taking your money to let you go or any of the other stuff like students being kidnapped and killed by the Mexican government no less!!!! These are things I'm struggling with in moving there now...it's no longer an issue of affordability but reading the crime reports I've seen recently on some forums besides this one makes me wonder how safe I will truly feel if I live there. For one thing I was hoping to drive myself there initially but now I'm too afraid to do that even!

It is true that the policing and medical response here in Mexico is not nearly as competent as NOB. However when I lived in Vancouver I didn't require any of those services and so far I haven't required them here either. I go into Guadalajara on a regular basis, I drive throughout central Mexico four or five times a year, I go out after dark all the time and walk all over the place. I can honestly say I have never seen anything criminal. I hear about things but I haven't seen it myself. I have never had a problem with the Police or any other government agency. I do take precautions with my home (bars, dogs, etc.) and I take precautions when I am out. If it doesn't feel right I don't go there. While my Spanish is very basic I have never had a problem communicating my needs whether here at the lake or anywhere throughout Mexico. Hand gestures and expressions do wonders.

Living in a foreign country is not for everyone. The day I am scared is the day I would leave. So far so good.

Thank you CanuckBob. I love Lakeside area from everything I've been told from members of this forum and mostly for what I read but the recent crimes that have happened in Mexico are disconcerting for sure! Just thought I'd get a poll on how most of the members of this forum feel. I've had some feedback by some members through pms but for the most part everyone seems to feel safe in spite of the subjects being addressed on recent crimes in the area. What stands out for me about moving there are the basic differences between how the US authorities handle pulling someone over and crimes in general as opposed to how Mexico government seems to handle it. The idea that any person in their government has openly coordinated authorizing murdering students is very alarming to me. Even if it's not true the idea that it could even be a possibility is alarming. Good to know though that you have always felt safe and that you have taken measures to keep your home safe as well. I will have a dog and may get an additional one upon living there as well. Dogs are wonderful alarm systems!!! Thanks again I greatly appreciate your opinion based on your years of experience there and that you manage this forum. Thank you for both :)

pamarie wrote: makes me wonder how I will feel in a country that doesn't have truly good police protection like we have in the US.

Many minorities living in the US would agree with the first part of that statement,  not so much with the last six words.

pamarie wrote:  The idea that any person in their government has openly coordinated authorizing murdering students is very alarming to me.  Even if it's not true the idea that it could even be a possibility is alarming.

I seem to remember a guy named Whitey Bulger who operated and murdered people with impunity for 20 years under the watchful eye of the FBI in Boston.

If you believe you are safe and protected in the U.S. and would not be in Mexico, better stay in the U.S. There are those of us here for years who live and feel the same way as CBob (and even as a single woman I do), but there are many people who moved back NOB because they did not. It is a state of mind. The day mine changes is the day I begin planning my move back. So far (six years) that has not happened. But, if you are too afraid to drive down here, you already do not have the mind set you need to live here. No shame in that.

A civilian search group claims to have found on Thursday nine new graves and informed the Federal Police. According to the civilian spokesman there were what might be school items scattered about and the bodies, from what they saw, had not long been dead. They left the exhumation to the authorities. The government is claiming that numerous cops have confessed their parts in the killings and even described the burials.

http://www.proceso.com.mx/?p=385688

MÉXICO, D.F. (proceso.com.mx).- Bruno Plácido Valerio, director of UPOEG (Union of Peoples and Organizations of the State of Guerrero), reported that yesterday his organization found nine secret graves in Iguala, Guerrero.

In an interview with Noticias MVS the civic leader said that after finding the nine graves they reported them to the Federal Police. “We coordinated our activities last night. Today they are setting out for the site”, he said.

According to Plácido Valerio the nine graves were found "in the same geographic area", in the higher part of the La Parota region.

“The grave was checked and opened only enough to identify flesh...it is new, because if the soil is reddish that means that the body has recently died," he said, but added that he did not want to "get ahead" of the forensic experts.

Aside from flesh, he mentioned that they found knapsacks, shoes, and ball point pens that might belong to the victims...

http://www.proceso.com.mx/?p=385688

The federal attorney general's office has now stated that the graves reported by the group UPOEG were some that they had already found and checked, and that as of yesterday the total of bodies found was 38.

http://www.cadenacinco.com/2014/10/25/oficial-11-fosas-y-38-cadaveres-hallados-en-guerrero/

This article had some background information I hadn't been aware of: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/crisis-mexico-disappearance-forty-three

Explorador wrote:This article had some background information I hadn't been aware of: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/crisis-mexico-disappearance-forty-three

The article isn't real clear about the fact that Angel Aguirre Rivero, governor of Guerrero and Jose Luis Abarca, presidente of Iguala, are both members of the Partido Revolucionario Democratico (PRD).  
What is hard to understand is why would Mexico's most left leaning major political party want to have this onus on their record with the leftist students. It could only be, because of personal reasons of the local politicians, i.e. the governor and the presidente.
This will severely damage the PRD in future elections.

Today Solalinde announced he is ending his involvement with the search for the students at the request of a group of their relatives, with no explanation of why they were asking this.

http://www.newscron.com/render/2797327/314201486#.VE2cb8nuabI

According to El Universal, a number of the students' parents are angry with Solalinde for spreading the rumor that their children were burned alive. I can certainly understand their anger.

Various outlets are reporting that the PGR is confirming it has found graves with bodies in the
Cocula garbage dump. This is the first time any graves have been reported found in that municipio during this search. It was the Cocula police who turned the students over to the Guerreros Unidos. According to various reports the graves were located through questioning of four recently arrested subjects who took part in the executions and burials

http://notimundo.com.mx/mexico/confirma-la-pgr-el-hallazgo-de-cuerpos-humanos-en-cocula/20923

I think this arrest of the four, brings the total of detainees to 56 (police and Guerreros Unidos). The word is that the police involved are using the old excuse of " I was under orders", reminiscent of Germany 1945.
"Eva Braun and Hitler" are still unaccounted for.

They caught the mayor and wife November 3/2014. I hope they suffer the same fate as the students did.