Templarios

Yes...this is tedious.

Smartalex wrote:

And this Mireles character is once again demanding the release from prison of Autodefensas leader Hipolito Mora, who is being held on 35 charges of murder, rape, kidnapping, extortion and theft. Mireles doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of traction on this issue. I think the good people of Michoacan would just as soon keep Mora safely locked up in jail rather than running around loose on their streets.

You nailed this one, didn't you, smartguy!!!!

Smartalex wrote:Yes...this is tedious.

(deleted by mod)

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote: So far, in the current investigation, former secretary of state Jesus Reyna has been convicted and sent to prison. That might indicate a significant difference in the two events.

Here, the smart guy comes to a conclusion based on his completely erroneous claim that Jesus Reyna has been convicted when the case hasn't even gone to trial. This is only one example of how smartalex lacks the ability to analyze events taking place in Michoacan.

How's that face-to-face meeting between EPN and Mireles coming along?

[quote="Smartalex"][quote="Jeff Raybourne"]

Smartalex wrote: So far, in the current investigation, former secretary of state Jesus Reyna has been convicted and sent to prison. That might indicate a significant difference in the two events.

(deleted by mod)


So we've got Hipólito out of jail and meeting personally with Castillo, (the person responsible for his jail time) and Jesus Reyna convicted when he hasn't been tried yet. The only reports of Mireles being investigated have come from Castillo, who had already set up Mora. So is Mireles being investigated? Or is it just another Castillo lie? I ask you simple questions but never get a straight answer.

Smartalex wrote:The government has issued an official denial that Hipolito Mora is getting out of jail anytime in the near future. The government says it will abide by the agreement signed last Monday by 20 Autodefensas leaders and release about 100 Autodefensas members who are being held solely for weapons violations. The rest of them -- the murders, thieves, kidnappers, extortionists and rapists -- will continue their stays in the federal prison system. The government says there are no separate agreements, a reference to statements made by Mireles in the interview with Carmen Aristegui.

Here's an excerpt from the interview:

Mireles said that he has a commitment from within the government to release Hipolito Mora...."It's an agreement with the commissioner, releasing Hipolito Mora" he said.

So who was telling the truth? The "Mireles character" or the government?

About 100 years ago, the governments and the people of the US and Canada decided that their countries would not be ruled by thugs and criminals and began to make changes.  With some notable exceptions they succeeded.  South of the border as far as you care to go, not so much.  The governments, AND THE PEOPLE, like things just the way they are. That is the only thing that accounts for decades of crime, poverty and corruption to the extent we see here.

addtocart wrote:About 100 years ago, the governments and the people of the US and Canada decided that their countries would not be ruled by thugs and criminals and began to make changes.  With some notable exceptions they succeeded.  South of the border as far as you care to go, not so much.  The governments, AND THE PEOPLE, like things just the way they are.  That is the only thing that accounts for decades of crime, poverty and corruption to the extent we see here.

I appreciate the debate going on.  I also get a my daily chuckle.  Let see if we can move forward a little.

Mexico is not a democracy, never has been.  It only appears to be one.  The government is the "perfect" dictatorship.  It is the ruling elite that like the way things are. They have kept the general population in poverty, hungry and with little education.  It has been this way for centuries.  

That is changing.  The people don't like the way things are.  People want an end to the killings, kidnappings, extortion and government corruption.  They have taking up arms to protect themselves, families and communities.  They are not going to give up those guns.

They don't care about the drugs, ship them north and bring that money back home.


EPN message is perceived to be the same falsehoods that have been perpetuated for decades. Most of what the government presents is met with a roll of the eyes.  Dr. Mireles is presenting a message that resonates with my friends living in Michoacan.  His ideals are embraced by a large amount of the "common folks".  

Dr. Mireles has been meeting and organizing with community and church leaders from all over Mexico.   After Dr. Mireles is killed someone else will step up and be the spokesperson with the same ideals.  It is the MESSAGE that counts.  

The biggest game changer is the internet. People now have the ability to COMMUNICATE instantly and see the rest of the world instantly.  Social media has connected the communities of Michoacan in a way never seen before.

good grief! there are even videos fotos, and print interviews with mora walking around freed from prison. i think our expert journalist has turned into a mushroom. now he has become a judge as well and convicted jesus who has in reality not been convicted of anything by the judicial system. mushrooms can't answer,jeffy, they're in the dark-SNORK!

Playaboy wrote:

addtocart wrote:About 100 years ago, the governments and the people of the US and Canada decided that their countries would not be ruled by thugs and criminals and began to make changes.  With some notable exceptions they succeeded.  South of the border as far as you care to go, not so much.  The governments, AND THE PEOPLE, like things just the way they are.  That is the only thing that accounts for decades of crime, poverty and corruption to the extent we see here.

I appreciate the debate going on.  I also get a my daily chuckle.  Let see if we can move forward a little.

Mexico is not a democracy, never has been.  It only appears to be one.  The government is the "perfect" dictatorship.  It is the ruling elite that like the way things are. They have kept the general population in poverty, hungry and with little education.  It has been this way for centuries.  

That is changing.  The people don't like the way things are.  People want an end to the killings, kidnappings, extortion and government corruption.  They have taking up arms to protect themselves, families and communities.  They are not going to give up those guns.

They don't care about the drugs, ship them north and bring that money back home.


EPN message is perceived to be the same falsehoods that have been perpetuated for decades. Most of what the government presents is met with a roll of the eyes.  Dr. Mireles is presenting a message that resonates with my friends living in Michoacan.  His ideals are embraced by a large amount of the "common folks".  

Dr. Mireles has been meeting and organizing with community and church leaders from all over Mexico.   After Dr. Mireles is killed someone else will step up and be the spokesperson with the same ideals.  It is the MESSAGE that counts.  

The biggest game changer is the internet. People now have the ability to COMMUNICATE instantly and see the rest of the world instantly.  Social media has connected the communities of Michoacan in a way never seen before.

very astute,a lot of what you say, but not all! you do have a better grasp than the mushroom.

Raybourne...According to statements by Mr. Mora's attorney Eduardo Quintero, as well as statements by Mr. Mireles, Mora was released due to the finding of a court that there was insufficient evidence to continue the judicial process against him. If you have information that disputes their claims, then let's see it.

Playaboy...I'm sure you realize that Raybourne has taken my comments out of the context of a discussion you and I had about who the government was actually going to release from prison under the agreement they had with the Autodefensas. As I remember, you said they would release all the prisoners and I said they wouldn't. You were right and I was wrong. I think the exchange between the two of us showed that there can be legitimate discussion on this topic without making it into an obsessive and endless argument.

Pedro, is there anyway possible for you to communicate your disagreement without calling someone names and/or getting personal??? You could have easily communicated the same message above without the "mushroom" comments. No?

Give it a try, por favor.

to all intents and purposes,castillo controls the state of michoacan and there is some question as to whether this is legal under the mexican constitution. is this more or less correct,jeffy?

Pedro wrote:to all intents and purposes,castillo controls the state of michoacan and there is some question as to whether this is legal under the mexican constitution. is this more or less correct,jeffy?

Yes.

Playaboy wrote:

They don't care about the drugs, ship them north and bring that money back home.

If that's the case,now they're reaping what they've sown...

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Playaboy...I'm sure you realize that Raybourne has taken my comments out of the context of a discussion you and I had about who the government was actually going to release from prison under the agreement they had with the Autodefensas. As I remember, you said they would release all the prisoners and I said they wouldn't. You were right and I was wrong. I think the exchange between the two of us showed that there can be legitimate discussion on this topic without making it into an obsessive and endless argument.

Nothing was taken out of context. Quit with all the dodges. You have been accusing and condemning people involved in the autodefensas movement throughout this whole discussion. Events have proven you wrong time and again. You make your judgements out of a singular type of naivete. You've been duped from the start.

You lifted my comments from the context of a discussion about the agreement to release Autodefensas held prisoner by the government. Hipolito Mora was released due to a judicial decision. Do you deny this? Did his release have anything to do with the agreement between the government and the Autodefensas?

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Playaboy...I'm sure you realize that Raybourne has taken my comments out of the context of a discussion you and I had about who the government was actually going to release from prison under the agreement they had with the Autodefensas. As I remember, you said they would release all the prisoners and I said they wouldn't. You were right and I was wrong. I think the exchange between the two of us showed that there can be legitimate discussion on this topic without making it into an obsessive and endless argument.

Nothing was taken out of context. Quit with all the dodges. You have been accusing and condemning people involved in the autodefensas movement throughout this whole discussion. Events have proven you wrong time and again. You make your judgements out of a singular type of naivete. You've been duped from the start.

You lifted my comments from the context of a discussion about the agreement to release Autodefensas held prisoner by the government. Hipolito Mora was released due to a judicial decision. Do you deny this? Did his release have anything to do with the agreement between the government and the Autodefensas?

I took your comments directly from your posts. You were doing your usual rant about what vile and ruthless killers and kidnappers Mora and Mireles are and the real hilarious comment about the people of Michoacan being happy their streets were safe now Mora was locked up......bla, bla blah

Of course he was released via judicial decision. He was also arrested and ordered to stand trial by judicial decisions. So what? Are you really so darn naive to believe the judicial here can't be very easily manipulated by politics, in this case Castillo? Evidence is falsified all the damn time. All Castillo had to do was give the prosecutor enough to charge him but not enough for a conviction. (Sentance deleted by mod)

Hey Raybourne...I thought you said murder was a state crime. Castillo is a federal commissioner. Once again, it ain't his case. You're making a lot of wild claims and accusations here. I might even agree with you if you could back it up with some kind of verification. Or am I just supposed to accept your opinion as fact at face value?

Incidentally, Hipolito Mora has so many enemies back home in La Ruana, that he's decided to live in Morelia for his own security.

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Pedro wrote:to all intents and purposes,castillo controls the state of michoacan and there is some question as to whether this is legal under the mexican constitution. is this more or less correct,jeffy?

Yes.

Verify this while you're at it.

Smartalex wrote:Hey Raybourne...I thought you said murder was a state crime. Castillo is a federal commissioner. Once again, it ain't his case. You're making a lot of wild claims and accusations here. I might even agree with you if you could back it up with some kind of verification. Or am I just supposed to accept your opinion as fact at face value?

Incidentally, Hipolito Mora has so many enemies back home in La Ruana, that he's decided to live in Morelia for his own security.

Do you know who the Procurador de Justicia is in Michoacan? Do you know what his previous position was prior to this one? Do you know who his boss was in that position? And several other positions prior to that one? Do you know how people like him achieve their success? Do you know what political patronage is? The kind that was common in Chicago with Daly for example?

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Hey Raybourne...I thought you said murder was a state crime. Castillo is a federal commissioner. Once again, it ain't his case. You're making a lot of wild claims and accusations here. I might even agree with you if you could back it up with some kind of verification. Or am I just supposed to accept your opinion as fact at face value?

Incidentally, Hipolito Mora has so many enemies back home in La Ruana, that he's decided to live in Morelia for his own security.

Do you know who the Procurador de Justicia is in Michoacan? Do you know what his previous position was prior to this one? Do you know who his boss was in that position? And several other positions prior to that one? Do you know how people like him achieve their success? Do you know what political patronage is? The kind that was common in Chicago with Daly for example?

So why are you asking me? If you have this information, let's see it. Let's see some facts; let's see some names.

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Hey Raybourne...I thought you said murder was a state crime. Castillo is a federal commissioner. Once again, it ain't his case. You're making a lot of wild claims and accusations here. I might even agree with you if you could back it up with some kind of verification. Or am I just supposed to accept your opinion as fact at face value?

Incidentally, Hipolito Mora has so many enemies back home in La Ruana, that he's decided to live in Morelia for his own security.

Do you know who the Procurador de Justicia is in Michoacan? Do you know what his previous position was prior to this one? Do you know who his boss was in that position? And several other positions prior to that one? Do you know how people like him achieve their success? Do you know what political patronage is? The kind that was common in Chicago with Daly for example?

So why are you asking me? If you have this information, let's see it. Let's see some facts; let's see some names.

I asked because I wanted to see if you knew they answers, duh! If you knew how things worked around here, like the people involved in the conflict know, you would be better able to understand why Mireles (who most definately knows) could say there was an agreement to free Mora and that the judicial decision was rigged from the start.

You see, Castillo has worked in the federal justice system in different dependencies for sometime as a political appointee. And the current attorney general in Michoacan was his underling in several of these different posts. Castillo handpicked the head of Michoacan's justice system and also the current state security head (another political crony who owes his political success to Castillo). So basically all state prosecutors and security chiefs work for Castillo via his proxies. Are you starting to get the picture?

viajero wrote:

Playaboy wrote:

They don't care about the drugs, ship them north and bring that money back home.

If that's the case,now they're reaping what they've sown...

Who's up for a good conspiracy theory? It goes something like this:

Although the Templarios tolerated some drug trafficking, heroin was strictly forbidden in their domain. It was, indeed, against their religion. Under Templario law, heroin dealers could be executed and farmers caught growing opium poppies could have their lands confiscated. This put a big crimp in the incomes of many farmers and sent some of them into exile in California. To fight back, the farmers in California took up a collection in order to organize and arm the vigilante movement. The middleman in this theory, as in the General Naranjo theory, is Mireles.

Smartalex wrote:

Well, you're short on facts Raybourne, but there was enough information for me to look it up and verify what you had to say. At this point, I'd agree that there are similarities to what the Calderon regime did during the Michoacanazo. But it's still too early to make that call. If nothing else, the EPN regime is a lot more competent than the bumbling fools who preceded them. I will certainly be a lot more skeptical of the state prosecutor in the future.

So why couldn't you have just said this in the first place? Why did you have to strut about, huff and puff, flap your wings and crow like a damned Pedro for page after page?

I don't know what facts I'm short of. Mireles said their was an agreement to release More and that happened. If you want to believe it was a simple case of lack of evidence go ahead. But the Get Out of Jail Free card in this case was held by the captor and not the prisoner. Not many people trust Castillo, none of the smart ones.


Now, can you explain what makes EPN and his policies more competent than his predecessor?

If I had simply posted the names and relationships between Castillo and his hired guns you wouldn't have looked up the information. Seeing that you believe little that I post and possibly toss it off with little thought, it served to motivate you to educate yourself through a little research.

Smartalex wrote:

viajero wrote:

Playaboy wrote:

They don't care about the drugs, ship them north and bring that money back home.

If that's the case,now they're reaping what they've sown...

Who's up for a good conspiracy theory? It goes something like this:

Although the Templarios tolerated some drug trafficking, heroin was strictly forbidden in their domain. It was, indeed, against their religion. Under Templario law, heroin dealers could be executed and farmers caught growing opium poppies could have their lands confiscated. This put a big crimp in the incomes of many farmers and sent some of them into exile in California. To fight back, the farmers in California took up a collection in order to organize and arm the vigilante movement. The middleman in this theory, as in the General Naranjo theory, is Mireles.

Is opium production prohibited by the Templarios?