Templarios

Well...thanks for the non-answer to my question. All the questions you pose have been discussed in the material in the links provided. If you'd like to discuss them one at time, I guess I could do that.

Smartalex wrote:Well...thanks for the non-answer to my question. All the questions you pose have been discussed in the material in the links provided. If you'd like to discuss them one at time, I guess I could do that.

The thing is, you have nothing and are trying to dodge the questions. None of my questions have been answered in any link.

Why hasn't Mireles been charged in the killings on the coast?

Is there any proof Mireles is tied to a rival cartel?

Is there any difference between Hipolito Mora's arrest and release than those of the Michoacanazo in 2009?

Can you answer any of those questions? If so, can you offer proof to support your answer?

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Well...thanks for the non-answer to my question. All the questions you pose have been discussed in the material in the links provided. If you'd like to discuss them one at time, I guess I could do that.

The thing is, you have nothing and are trying to dodge the questions. None of my questions have been answered in any link.  

Why hasn't Mireles been charged in the killings on the coast?

Is there any proof Mireles is tied to a rival cartel?

Is there any difference between Hipolito Mora's arrest and release than those of the Michoacanazo in 2009?

Can you answer any of those questions?  If so, can you offer proof to support your answer?

Mireles is still under investigation by the attorney general of the state of Michoacan for the kilings at Chuquiapan. If an when the attorney general makes a decision, I will post a link here.

I never said Mr. Mireles was tied to a rival cartel. What do you mean by "rival cartel" anyway? Are you referring to Mr. Mireles close association with Juan Jose Farias and the so-called "Farias Gang?" If so, that has been well documented in this thread.

The Michoacanazo was then, Hipolito Mora is now.

Perhaps it would more accurate to compare the Michoacanazo to the current investigation of public corruption in Michoacan. Did anyone actually get convicted in the Michoacanazo or were they all eventually released? So far, in the current investigation, former secretary of state Jesus Reyna has been convicted and sent to prison. That might indicate a significant difference in the two events.

Smartalex wrote:Perhaps it would more accurate to compare the Michoacanazo to the current investigation of public corruption in Michoacan. Did anyone actually get convicted in the Michoacanazo or were they all eventually released? So far, in the current investigation, former secretary of state Jesus Reyna has been convicted and sent to prison. That might indicate a significant difference in the two events.

You just finished Google-ing "Michoacanazo" so you already have the answer. Why act like you knew the story?

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:Well...thanks for the non-answer to my question. All the questions you pose have been discussed in the material in the links provided. If you'd like to discuss them one at time, I guess I could do that.

The thing is, you have nothing and are trying to dodge the questions. None of my questions have been answered in any link.  

Why hasn't Mireles been charged in the killings on the coast?

Is there any proof Mireles is tied to a rival cartel?

Is there any difference between Hipolito Mora's arrest and release than those of the Michoacanazo in 2009?

Can you answer any of those questions?  If so, can you offer proof to support your answer?

Mireles is still under investigation by the attorney general of the state of Michoacan for the kilings at Chuquiapan. If an when the attorney general makes a decision, I will post a link here.

I never said Mr. Mireles was tied to a rival cartel. What do you mean by "rival cartel" anyway? Are you referring to Mr. Mireles close association with Juan Jose Farias and the so-called "Farias Gang?" If so, that has been well documented in this thread.

The Michoacanazo was then, Hipolito Mora is now.

IOW you have no answers. I never said you said Mireles had ties to a Templarios rival. But as much as you have attacked the man's credentials and integrity I figured you would know the answer.

Is Mireles under investigation? Can you post a link that verifies that? The only thing I have been able to find is Castillo making declarations. Nothing from the PGJE of Michoacan except the case is under investigation. I haven't found anything that defines Mireles as a suspect. IMO Castillo is playing a propaganda war to discredit Mireles.

Smartalex wrote: So far, in the current investigation, former secretary of state Jesus Reyna has been convicted and sent to prison. That might indicate a significant difference in the two events.

Has he been convicted? Linky dinky, por favor.

I would agree that Castillo is playing a propaganda war and that the government feels the need to "neutralize" the influence of both Mr. Mireles and the entire vigilante movement. If I were the government, I would feel the same. How can a legitimate government accept heavily armed paramilitary groups meting out its own form of justice? The shootout in Chuquiapan is a stunning example of what can go wrong. You call that the rule of law? If anything, I'm impressed with the light-handed approach the government has taken with these outlaw groups of vigilantes, repeatedly appeasing and compromising with them.

Hello? Has Jesus Reyna been convicted? Need some proof.

As far as a government allowing heavily armed paramilitary what about the theories circulating about EPN's ex-advisor Oscar Naranjo's influence? Anything to those rumors? Are they the reason the government has a "light-handed approach"? Quien sabe y quien sabrá?

smartguy,isn't it strange that i can google "doctor" mireles and find tons of info including pictures but nada under "mister" mireles. some of what you have said above sheds some light on certain motivations for a change. one important thing that you seem to fail to understand is that the autodefences would not exist if the people would have felt that they were protected in the first place.
a picture of DOCTOR mireles.

Reyna is still being processed and awaiting trial. From Reforma...

Mexico (13 May 2014) -. A federal judge ruled Mexico State tonight formal arrest former Acting Governor of Michoacan, Jesus Reyna Garcia, for the offense of organized crime with the purpose of committing crimes health, resulting from its alleged links with the Knights Templarios.Ricardo Pastén Garduño, Fourth District Judge in Criminal Proceedings of Toluca, ruled that the PGR offered necessary evidence to hold a trial Reyna, who remain interned in the Federal Penal del Altiplano during the process, because the crime imputed to him is serious.

The question of what Colombian police chief General Oscar Naranjo was doing as an advisor to the Pena regime is an interesting one, which no one has yet to explain. Since he has a long history of supporting paramilitaries in Colombia in their guerrilla war with leftist revolutionaries and narco terrorists, there is speculation that Naranjo actually created the Autodefensas movement in Mexico in order to fight organized crime.

Now tell me Raybourne, why couldn't you just have explained this yourself instead of putting it forth as some kind of a confrontation and argument? Or, as Ms. Thang put it so appropriately earlier in this thread, "Why do you have to be such a little bitch?"

From Insight Crime...

Former Colombian Police Director Joins Mexican Front-Runner's Campaign

http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/former-colombian-police-director-joins-mexican-front-runners-campaign

The story of the mysterious General Naranjo is one of the most intriguing aspects of this saga of modern-day Mexico. When he joined the Pena campaign as a security adviser, red flags went up all over the international human rights community. Naranjo was suspected of having secretly set up government-supported self-defense militias and paramilitary groups to fight former leftist guerrillas who had morphed into a narcotrafficking cartel. The paramilitaries emerged victorious from the ensuing bloodbath only to morph into narcotraffickers themselves. Was Naranjo bringing his methods for fighting organized crime to Mexcio? Was this going to be the "Colombianization" of Mexico?

Naranjo served Pena for about a year in the new regime. Then he went home to Colombia. Few people actually know what he did. I guess that's not so unusual for a national security adviser. But this being Mexico, speculation abounds. Did Naranjo set up the Autodefensas in the first place? Did he arrange a third-party deal to supply them with automatic weapons? Was Mireles the third party?

I posted nothing confrontational and you attack me personally with profanity! Careful, bucko, that is grounds for suspension from the forum. Just ask pedro.

So now that you have clarified that Jesus Reyna has NOT been convicted as you claimed, (and your, "that was then, this is now" declaration is no longer valid) we will just chalk that up to your lack of understanding of the Mexican legal system and/or Spanish comprehension. Seems like we've been down that path before.

Now you are posting info (gathered today) from Google on Naranjo as if you had known of his existence prior to my mentioning his name. This thread has gone on for some time and 33 pages and you never even knew of his existence. Amazing! Or was this just more info you felt wouldn't hold much interest for the readers?

BTW, my personal opinion is Naranjo wasn't involved in the organization of the vigilantes but maybe kind of counseled EPN on letting them operate with little direct interference. Take some pressure off the government, let them receive any criticism for human rights violations etc. Unfortunately for him and EPN his notoriety brought too much scrutiny and his departure from this country was accelerated.

Jeff Raybourne wrote:
Now you are posting info (gathered today) from Google on Naranjo as if you had known of his existence prior to my mentioning his name. This thread has gone on for some time and 33 pages and you never even knew of his existence. Amazing! Or was this just more info you felt wouldn't hold much interest for the readers?

You underestimate me. I've known of Naranjo since he first arrived in Mexico. And he has been mentioned before in this thread. We actually had a conversation about an article in which Naranjo was discussed. In fact, I chose to link that particular article here due to the fact that it discussed Naranjo. You seemed to object to the source, Cronica. Evidently, you never bothered to read the article. To refresh your memory, from Cronica...

El enigmático doctor Mireles

http://www.cronicajalisco.com/notas/2014/14690.html

Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cronicajalisco.com%2Fnotas%2F2014%2F14690.html

So, Jeff Rayburn is offended by a personal attack and bad language? That´s rich.
Quotes from Jeff in this thread:

Page 16: calls Ms Thang a “big bitch.”
Page 17: “Holy shit!!!!!!!”
Page 18: “You can really be full of shit sometimes.”
“What kind of crap is that?”
“And no one is forming a team, dipshit.”
Page 23: “What kind of bullshit are you spewing now?”
“And to claim that BB is afraid to post it is fucking laughable.”
“You'd shit your pants with glee if Mireles was photographed with a dead 13 year old.”

Page 25: “WTF???? How the hell would a person like you with such a low level of Spanish comprehension be qualified to make such a stupid assumption?”

Page 28: “Calderon did jack shit, in 6 years.”
“dude, you really need to eliminate the "smart" from your username.”
“You are too fucking stupid to understand but for the benefit of other readers, I'll explain.”

Page 29: “You continually show what a complete ignoramous you are. There was a time on this board that you appeared to be a poster of substance. Your idiocy on this thread has completely removed that illusion.”

Page 32: “I didn't miss a damn thing.”

And, then, on page 33, suddenly Jeff clutches his pearls and swoons: “ I posted nothing confrontational and you attack me personally with profanity! Careful, bucko, that is grounds for suspension from the forum.”

  

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:
Now you are posting info (gathered today) from Google on Naranjo as if you had known of his existence prior to my mentioning his name. This thread has gone on for some time and 33 pages and you never even knew of his existence. Amazing! Or was this just more info you felt wouldn't hold much interest for the readers?

You underestimate me. I've known of Naranjo since he first arrived in Mexico. And he has been mentioned before in this thread. We actually had a conversation about an article in which Naranjo was discussed. In fact, I chose to link that particular article here due to the fact that it discussed Naranjo. You seemed to object to the source, Cronica. Evidently, you never bothered to read the article. To refresh your memory, from Cronica...

El enigmático doctor Mireles

http://www.cronicajalisco.com/notas/2014/14690.html

Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cronicajalisco.com%2Fnotas%2F2014%2F14690.html

He is barely mentioned in the article. Now, where was he mentioned in this thread?

That was good laugh, Lady O. Thank you.

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:
Now you are posting info (gathered today) from Google on Naranjo as if you had known of his existence prior to my mentioning his name. This thread has gone on for some time and 33 pages and you never even knew of his existence. Amazing! Or was this just more info you felt wouldn't hold much interest for the readers?

You underestimate me. I've known of Naranjo since he first arrived in Mexico. And he has been mentioned before in this thread. We actually had a conversation about an article in which Naranjo was discussed. In fact, I chose to link that particular article here due to the fact that it discussed Naranjo. You seemed to object to the source, Cronica. Evidently, you never bothered to read the article. To refresh your memory, from Cronica...

El enigmático doctor Mireles

http://www.cronicajalisco.com/notas/2014/14690.html

Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cronicajalisco.com%2Fnotas%2F2014%2F14690.html

He is barely mentioned in the article.  Now, where was he mentioned in this thread?

That's a pretty weak-ass argument on your behalf. Hey, guess what? They even know who Naranjo is on Borderland Beat. His name comes up often in the comments section.

I asked where he is mentioned in this thread. Of course he is mentioned elsewhere on the web. Its just that you never discussed his perceived role in this topic until now. The article in La Cronica gives the vert minimum of info. Not enough until now for you to notice, let alone the people here who rely on you for your very limited and one sided info. Quit being so dishonest.

Yes, because a poster on a web board should post every bit of information ever posted anywhere on the topic no matter how complex it is or how long it has been going on. Oh, and present all sides of the topic because it is your responsibility to present the case of the people who disagree with you but do not have the time to present their arguments for themselves busy as they are critizing and nitpicking everything you write. Failure to follow the rules arbitrarily created by people who do not like you will result in everything you say, write or think being considered invalid. Get with the program, Alex.   

Lady Otter Latté wrote:Yes, because a poster on a web board should post every bit of information ever posted anywhere on the topic no matter how complex it is or how long it has been going on. Oh, and present all sides of the topic because it is your responsibility to present the case of the people who disagree with you but do not have the time to present their arguments for themselves busy as they are critizing and nitpicking everything you write. Failure to follow the rules arbitrarily created  by people who do not like you will result in everything you say, write or think being considered invalid. Get with the program, Alex.   

you are the expert at that sort of thing-eh! at least some of us post links and opinions related to the topic and you have posted nothing but irrelevant trash. get with the programme yourself. do you even understand anything about the topic? give us a summary-SNORK!

I was not talking to you, Repete. Once Jeff posts something intelligent you can say, "Yeah."

Lady Otter Latté wrote:I was not talking to you, Repete. Once Jeff posts something intelligent you can say, "Yeah."

i'll ask again-give us a summary about the actual topic-SNORK!

Just because you do not understand the topic, do not ask me to summarize it for you. I am sure Jeff can explain it to you in terms even you will understand.

Lady Otter Latté wrote:Just because you do not understand the topic, do not ask me to summarize it for you. I am sure Jeff can explain it to you in terms even you will understand.

i want to know if you understand. i understand full well,as i followed what was going on in michoacan probably longer than alex. merely because jeffy and i are on roughly the same wave length does not mean i get my info from him nor he from me. others have contributed to the topic as well, both with links and comments. you haven't. hence my question to you or is the actual topic to complex for you and you would prefer to post your off topic tripe?
by the way a sincere thank you neil for putting me on to borderland beat and the now demised el blog del narco a few years ago.

Lady Otter Latté wrote:Just because you do not understand the topic, do not ask me to summarize it for you. I am sure Jeff can explain it to you in terms even you will understand.

Well you took it upon yourself to summarize my swearing throughout this very long thread so why not give a summary on the topic? Oh forget it, I'll do it. Alex doesn't like Mireles and is an admirer of the feds efforts in handling the situation. Yep, that pretty much sums it up.