Templarios

I just went back to page 10 and couldn't find a single instance where either of the critics provided a link that documented where Smartalex may have been wrong. I do know that at least one of them is fully capable of posting a link.

Smartalex wrote:
So you feel comfortable taking El Platano's word for what happened at the checkpoint?  You are so obsessed with discrediting me that you failed to recognize just what a poorly written piece of biased and self-serving bullshit that article on El Platano truly was. In fact, you actually reinforced my points of contention.

Really? I haven't taken either side. I have pointed out that there is conflicting information in the different media accounts. Which one contains the truth? Or the least amount of lies. You seem to be very certain about this. What makes one account more valid than another?

Smartalex wrote: For instance, you pointed out the discrepancies in the amount of time it took for the gun battle. The news article said 25 minutes. You raised this specific point in expressing your skepticism that those manning the checkpoint were unarmed. Well, according to El Platano, it only took 15 minutes. If we accept El Platano's time estimate, your argument falls apart.

Again, pointing out discrepancies. Excuse me for being skeptical. Especially in cases like this where all parties involved are heavily into the propaganda war.

Smartalex wrote: For instance, you pointed out that I said El Platano distrusted the army, when he actually said he distrusted the marines. Thank you for the clarification. The marines are the single-most well-respected and well-trusted governmental organization involved in the struggle against organized crime. The fact that El Platano has expressed his distrust of this organization is a pretty good indication of just how loose a cannon he truly is.

Yes and I also said that I found that surprising. But I have also had personal experiences with the military here that doesn't allow me to place blind faith in their supposed virtues. And I would be willing to bet many more Mexicans share el Plátano's distrust. Is your opinion about SEMAR shaped by anything other than news reports?

Smartalex wrote: In addition, you pointed out that Mr. Beltran arrived on the scene, intent upon arresting El Platano. Thanks for that little tidbit of information. I wonder what charges he had in mind.

I have no idea. Don't you?

Smartalex wrote: In addition to that, you take El Platano's self-serving statements about the disposition of the supposed weapons held by the pseudoautodefensas at face value. You even went further and distorted his remarks, only to be corrected by Ms. Thing. We all know the drill: The criminals are arrested and their weapons, money and contraband are then displayed to the press and media. So far, I've seen two handguns, one of which was actually buried during the altercation.

Where did I distort anything?  El Plátano was quoted as saying he "believed"  (the verb creer) not that he thought ( the verb pensar) the weapons were removed. There is a big difference between the 2 words.

You saw 2 handguns in a video and that is enough proof for you?  Because you know the drill?  Evidence in all cases is manipulated according to the interests of the government. They'll parade a bunch of losers with all of the loot and weapons before the press or they'll disappear witnesses and evidence when it makes them look bad. Remember a short while ago when they paraded that poor car salesman in front of the cameras, saying he was a big time narco? Remember what they did to poor Mario Bezares? Will they expedite el Chapo and let him spill the beans on all of the corrupt government officials?

You also say one of the handguns was buried "during the altercation". I mean, where does this come from?

CheenaGringo wrote:I just went back to page 10 and couldn't find a single instance where either of the critics provided a link that documented where Smartalex may have been wrong.  I do know that at least one of them is fully capable of posting a link.

We all know you have no problems posting links. You're the king of that realm.

No one minds an inaccuracy being corrected. Raybourne just seems so angry and his obsession with Alex is getting tiresome.

That last link was great fun to read but to hiss and spit over accuracies...really?

«Cuando llegamos la gente se sentía medio asustada, luego vieron que tomé Caleta yo y dijeron: no pues, es El Plátano. ^^

I don't see how you can read past that and think you are in for some solid information. It's a conversation piece, take what you want and leave the rest.

Once again, Ms. Thang sums it up nicely.

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Where did I distort anything?  El Plátano was quoted as saying he "believed"  (the verb creer) not that he thought ( the verb pensar) the weapons were removed. There is a big difference between the 2 words.

And an even bigger difference in your translation. From your post on May 4:
"He also claims that the State cops and el Pitufo removed much of the weapons from the scene."

Here's the original Spanish:
"Yo creo que fue el Papá Pitufo quien las desaparecio."

Where is the translation for the word creo (I believe)? How did a belief that something happened become a claim that something happened? You wouldn't call that a distortion?

Lady Otter Latté wrote:Once again, Ms. Thang sums it up nicely.

ms thang knows diddley about any of this and you know even less.

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Where did I distort anything?  El Plátano was quoted as saying he "believed"  (the verb creer) not that he thought ( the verb pensar) the weapons were removed. There is a big difference between the 2 words.

Is there really much difference between,yo creo and yo pienso in this context?Why split hairs?
I give Alex credit for making the effort to learn Spanish,something some expats don't even attempt.
Papa Pitufo,el Platano,la Tuta,el Unico,el mas Loco,etc..where do these assholes come up with their nicknames,that's what I'd like to know.

“Ayer traían eso de desarmarnos… cualquier intento de desarme el pueblo sale y se arma con lo que sea, como allá en Ostula, allá nos desarmaron y todo el pueblo se armó con piedras y palos para que nos regresaran las armas”; comentaba un comunitario en caleta de Ocampo el día 31 de marzo, cuando la SEMAR intentó el desarme por segunda vez en el mismo día en la barricada en esa playa: ”querían que nos formáramos y que les entregáramos las armas (a la SEMAR)” “Ellos (militares) lo que hacen es estorbarnos, no nos dejan avanzar nos estorban, nos estorban”, señala el plátano, quien es oriundo de Caleta de Ocampo y coordinador de los comunitarios en el municipio de Lázaro Cárdenas Michoacán.

En el municipio de Peribán dos de sus barricadas fueron atacadas a balazos a finales del mes de marzo de año en curso, por un grupo de paramilitares en la cabecera municipal. Días después, el 11 de abril, efectivos de la SEMAR llegaron a la barricada ocupada por comunitarios de la comunidad de Huahua, en la costa michoacana, confiscando las armas a base de intimidación, pero en su retirada fueron retenidos en la barricada ubicada en la localidad de Caleta de Campo, en donde a principios de abril fueron también con las misma misión pero la organización del pueblo sometió a los efectivos de la marina armada de México y se vieron obligados a devolver las armas a los comunitarios. Los miembros de las policías comunitarias, autodefensas y diversas brigadas de la costa michoacana, hacen un llamado a toda la sociedad solidaria, para hacer un llamado para que el estado mexicano no confisque sus armas en las distintas barricadas.

http://www.proyectoambulante.org/index.php/noticias/nacionales/item/4101-resistencia-de-los-pueblos-nahua-en-la-costa-michoacana-no-al-desarme-de-los-comunitarios

viajero wrote:

Smartalex wrote:

Jeff Raybourne wrote:

Where did I distort anything?  El Plátano was quoted as saying he "believed"  (the verb creer) not that he thought ( the verb pensar) the weapons were removed. There is a big difference between the 2 words.

Is there really much difference between,yo creo and yo pienso in this context?Why split hairs?
I give Alex credit for making the effort to learn Spanish,something some expats don't even attempt.
Papa Pitufo,el Platano,la Tuta,el Unico,el mas Loco,etc..where do these assholes come up with their nicknames,that's what I'd like to know.

you don't know alex who thinks he speaks perfect spanish that he learned when he was a californiac. he has a very weird accent which he attributes to latinos in california-therefore his espanol is perfect-SNORK!
now that jeffy is involved in this thread too,there are 2 of us that think he is full of shit on this topic and rightly/writely so. lotsa quantity-little quality.

Pedro,I had the pleasure of meeting Alex at Jim W' s house,he will be the first to admit the his Spanish isn't fluent,but I'd be willing to bet that its a hell of a lot better than yours is.
I don't agree with his perceived pro government take on this issue any more than I would agree with a pro autodefensa viewpoint,I'm not well enough informed on this subject to make a judgement either way.

This isn't a cause to form a team to gang up on one individual who is going out of his way in attempting to explain a complex situation that is basically way above our pay grades! At least Smartalex provides his sources for all to examine and determine if he may be on the right track. Damned easy to make up your own theories and not provide any documentation! I believe that is called making up your own facts?

CheenaGringo wrote:This isn't a cause to form a team to gang up on one individual who is going out of his way in attempting to explain a complex situation that is basically way above our pay grades!  At least Smartalex provides his sources for all to examine and determine if he may be on the right track.  Damned easy to make up your own theories and not provide any documentation!  I believe that is called making up your own facts?

You can really be full of shit sometimes. SmartAlex criticized pedro for his using borderlandbeat as his source of info and then turns around and links to the site himself. What kind of crap is that?

And no one is forming a team, dipshit. Even if I played those types of silly games, Pedro and I are the last 2 that would ever become a team.

"there are 2 of us that think he is full of shit on this topic"

Since the above wasn't your statement, no reason for you to get defensive!

viajero wrote:Pedro,I had the pleasure of meeting Alex at Jim W' s house,he will be the first to admit the his Spanish isn't fluent,but I'd be willing to bet that its a hell of a lot better than yours is.
I don't agree with his perceived pro government take on this issue any more than I would agree with a pro autodefensa viewpoint,I'm not well enough informed on this subject to make a judgement either way.

Some of you people have read my history of the PRI. You know that I'm not exactly a fan of theirs. While I disagree with much of this regime's policies, I'm cutting them some slack, at least in my own mind, when it comes to the issue of Michoacan. They seem to have done a good job in smashing the Templario stranglehold on Michoacan. They have shown a good deal of patience and compassion in dealing with the vigilantes, slowly defusing a powder keg that was ready to explode. And they seem to be pursuing the investigation of corrupt public officials, including their own party members. They have done a better job in Michoacan than I possibly could have expected.

Thank you, SmartAlex, for continuing to have an adult discussion minus cussing and personal attacks while dealing with same.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine differs from yours, smartalex. I don't see how you can say the PRI smashed the Templarios nor that they defused a powder keg. They were content to maintain the status quo until their hand was forced by the autodefensas. The powder keg had already exploded before they decided to react. Osorio Chong is on record saying that the extreme violence was without parallel nor precedent when they finally sent in the cavalry.  If they had always had the capability to destroy the Templarios, why did they wait until the situation was basically out of control, the great majority of locals living in constant fear? Only after a narco-democracy was thoroughly established did they do anything. The Templarios doom, in my opinion, is due to the autodefensas. If they hadn't formed things would still be run by the Templarios.

As far as prosecuting some of their own for corruption, they have always been willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the party. And look what a PR coup it has been. Its won you over.

The powder keg has not diffused. Give it another week or so.

autodefensas have been in the forefront of "smashing" the templarios as jeffy has noted and "most" of the non-gummint influenced media have reported.actually even some of them have turned the worm on occasion.

Meanwhile, there is news from Michoacan. Another mayor got busted. Tacambaro mayor Noe Octavio Aburto Inclan has been charged with stealing a backhoe from the city. He is currently free after posting a million-peso bond, which is the approximate value of the backhoe. Aburto Inclan is the first Panista to be charged in the continuing investigation into corrupt public officials in Michoacan.

In the municipo of Apatzingan, an Autodefensas patrol, performing their function as community police, shot and killed a drunken man who had just killed three people and wounded two others. Community policing will be the new role for the Autodefensas after May 11...no more roaming the countryside, overthrowing local governments for them.

And this Mireles character is once again demanding the release from prison of Autodefensas leader Hipolito Mora, who is being held on 35 charges of murder, rape, kidnapping, extortion and theft. Mireles doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of traction on this issue. I think the good people of Michoacan would just as soon keep Mora safely locked up in jail rather than running around loose on their streets.




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I'm having trouble using the Google translator for full pages. Can anyone suggest an alternative translation site?

I think I solved my problems with the Google translator by downloading the translator tool for Firefox.

Here's another news story about the investigation of the attack on the checkpoint in Chuquiapan, near the city of Lazaro Cardenas. Once again, it is reported that the kids manning the checkpoint were armed with a total of two handguns.

Spanish:
http://1aplana.mx/noticias/sucesos/investiga-pgje-enfrentamiento-entre-autodefensas/

Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F1aplana.mx%2Fnoticias%2Fsucesos%2Finvestiga-pgje-enfrentamiento-entre-autodefensas%2F

The Autodefensas Council is also investigating the incident.

Spanish:
http://1aplana.mx/noticias/sucesos/autodefensas-parten-a-chuquiapan-a-investigar-los-5-asesinatos/

Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F1aplana.mx%2Fnoticias%2Fsucesos%2Fautodefensas-parten-a-chuquiapan-a-investigar-los-5-asesinatos%2F

Its just repeating the same story carried in other media sources
Absolutely nothing new.

Here's the face of "El Platano." I can't make out much of what he's saying. Any help out there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFa0pOFeSSA

Jeff Raybourne wrote:“Ayer traían eso de desarmarnos… cualquier intento de desarme el pueblo sale y se arma con lo que sea, como allá en Ostula, allá nos desarmaron y todo el pueblo se armó con piedras y palos para que nos regresaran las armas”; comentaba un comunitario en caleta de Ocampo el día 31 de marzo, cuando la SEMAR intentó el desarme por segunda vez en el mismo día en la barricada en esa playa: ”querían que nos formáramos y que les entregáramos las armas (a la SEMAR)” “Ellos (militares) lo que hacen es estorbarnos, no nos dejan avanzar nos estorban, nos estorban”, señala el plátano, quien es oriundo de Caleta de Ocampo y coordinador de los comunitarios en el municipio de Lázaro Cárdenas Michoacán.

En el municipio de Peribán dos de sus barricadas fueron atacadas a balazos a finales del mes de marzo de año en curso, por un grupo de paramilitares en la cabecera municipal. Días después, el 11 de abril, efectivos de la SEMAR llegaron a la barricada ocupada por comunitarios de la comunidad de Huahua, en la costa michoacana, confiscando las armas a base de intimidación, pero en su retirada fueron retenidos en la barricada ubicada en la localidad de Caleta de Campo, en donde a principios de abril fueron también con las misma misión pero la organización del pueblo sometió a los efectivos de la marina armada de México y se vieron obligados a devolver las armas a los comunitarios. Los miembros de las policías comunitarias, autodefensas y diversas brigadas de la costa michoacana, hacen un llamado a toda la sociedad solidaria, para hacer un llamado para que el estado mexicano no confisque sus armas en las distintas barricadas.

http://www.proyectoambulante.org/index.php/noticias/nacionales/item/4101-resistencia-de-los-pueblos-nahua-en-la-costa-michoacana-no-al-desarme-de-los-comunitarios

  

arieaabrahamssohn ‏@aabrahamssohn  13h
La Tercera Hermandad, nuevo cártel de Tuta y autodefensas en la Ciénaga de Chapala (Michoacán): Jiqiulpan, Sahuayo