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Post by diamondtuffy on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:02 pm

Ok, it's been a couple of days since Paris and I'm reading a lot of articles from unusual places like Mother Jones, CNN and others questioning not only the President's speech, but also vetting of incoming refugees etc. What does that do for you "open door" folks?

And here's one to chew on, President O said that "religion" as a component of immigration wasn't the "American way". Except it most specifically is, either he's completely incompetent (as a professor of Constitutional law) or flat out lying through his teeth.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/427262/refugee-religious-test-shameful-and-not-american-except-federal-law-requires-it-andrew

And, I see even Sen Schumer is considering a "pause" - so, what say you?

PS: don't imagine for a moment this doesn't apply to MX, the world has become very much smaller in our lifetimes.

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Post by WDBarr on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:31 pm

Smartalex wrote:
slainte39 wrote:Fundamental Islam seems to be misogynistic of women's rights and equality.  Can't understand why half the population (the women) of Islamic countries adhere to those beliefs.
Does the Koran espouse this or where does it come from?  I can't imagine women in Christian dominated countries ever accepting this treatment.

Islam is built upon the teachings and writings of the preceding Abrahamic religions: Judaism and Christianity. There are numerous provisions in both Judaism and Christianity that relegate women to a lesser role. For instance, the tenth commandment considers a wife to be a possession of a man, like his house or his donkey. And, according the Christian Bible, women are required to be submissive to their husbands.

Non-Christians misinterpret the teaching of submission. The Bible also teaches that a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church - enough to give his life for her. Does that sound like the master-slave relationship that you are implying? Christianity has done more to raise the status of women than any policy or ideology in the history of the world. Before God, men and women are equal. Your interpretation of the tenth commandment is - to be polite - uninformed. The commandment is about coveting - wanting what is not yours. My spouse is mine - because Christianity teaches that in marriage, two become one. A closer reading and further study would make this more clear to you - kind of like in English class when you have to critically analyze a story or poem. It requires higher order thinking skills.

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Post by WDBarr on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:33 pm

gringal wrote:"the Truth" is, and always has been, elusive, with many paths attempting to find it.  Anyone who thinks they have "found it" is self-deluded.  The "truth" is that, unless you have been to the afterlife "heaven", spoken with the alleged God Hisself and returned to enlighten the ignorant, you don't know any more than the humblest beggar on the streets of Calcutta. (Whose path is very different from yours, but who believes it devoutly.)

Any other allegation is pure ignorance, mixed thoroughly with arrogance.  No matter how may sycophants agree with you........it doesn't meet the gold standard, as outlined above.  Let us know how it works out AFTER you've spoken with God.  
lol!

If you want to sound enlightened, you should never write, "hisself."

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Post by slainte39 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:38 pm

I say.....
Seeking freedom from religious persecution and looking for asylum is one thing, seeking asylum from death and destruction, but passing a religious test, is another.

As usual your posts leave me "yawn" Sleep

The French, Russians, and anybody else will handle their problems and life will go on.
You are just to eager to make a political statement out of any tragic event and that makes your admonishments totally irrelevant...and useless.


Last edited by slainte39 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by slainte39 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:46 pm

WDBarr quote......"before God, men and women are equal"

Is that in time or space?

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Post by brigitte on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:07 pm

A Moslem can have 3 wife and it is in the Koran that they have to be treated equally. My father did business with a rich man from the Middle East and one time he asked my father if my mother could accompany him to Dior to chose some clothes for his wifes. My mother was the same size as one of his wives. She went with him and he ordered 3 dresses, all the same ...My mother asked him why go to Dior to get 3 similar outfits and he said, he had to treat his wives equally and that no matter what he chose they would fight if it was different ..The life of a polygamist is not easy..

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Post by diamondtuffy on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:41 pm

slainte39 wrote:I say.....
Seeking freedom from religious persecution and looking for asylum is one thing, seeking asylum from death and destruction, but passing a religious test, is another.

Ok, you're going to have to help me with that one because in today's world the asylum seekers are all saying that religious asylum is needed to keep them from dying - and in the case of ISIS that's probably true. So, how is this not the same?

And, if I'm keeping you awake, take a nap, I'll still be here asking the same questions.

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Post by viajero on Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:21 pm

WDBarr wrote:


If you want to sound enlightened, you should never write, "hisself."  
WDBarr,you're the same jerk who on this forum referred to President Obama as an affirmative action hire.
Talk about unenlightened...

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Post by gringal on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:08 pm

WDBarr wrote:
gringal wrote:"the Truth" is, and always has been, elusive, with many paths attempting to find it.  Anyone who thinks they have "found it" is self-deluded.  The "truth" is that, unless you have been to the afterlife "heaven", spoken with the alleged God Hisself and returned to enlighten the ignorant, you don't know any more than the humblest beggar on the streets of Calcutta. (Whose path is very different from yours, but who believes it devoutly.)

Any other allegation is pure ignorance, mixed thoroughly with arrogance.  No matter how may sycophants agree with you........it doesn't meet the gold standard, as outlined above.  Let us know how it works out AFTER you've spoken with God.  
lol!

If you want to sound enlightened, you should never write, "hisself."  

You appear to be humor impaired. Pity. I don't pretend to be "enlightened", but I do question the ridiculous statements of those who are so clearly deluded as to pretend that they are.

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Post by gringal on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:26 pm

diamondtuffy wrote:
slainte39 wrote:I say.....
Seeking freedom from religious persecution and looking for asylum is one thing, seeking asylum from death and destruction, but passing a religious test, is another.

Ok, you're going to have to help me with that one because in today's world the asylum seekers are all saying that religious asylum is needed to keep them from dying - and in the case of ISIS that's probably true. So, how is this not the same?

And, if I'm keeping you awake, take a nap, I'll still be here asking the same questions.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

No, you're not interfering with my sleep cycle.  However, I think you would benefit from a course in logic.
The rules governing asylum include, but do not require, that the applicant be in fear of his/her life because of the religion they adhere to.   It could be their political position instead.

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Post by brigitte on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:48 pm

atrocity, tragedy, it all fit I do not see why you would object to either description. It is a tragedy for all the victims and family..We call it a tragedy in France.

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Post by espíritu del lago on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:06 pm

Exactly Brigitte!
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Post by Rosa Venus on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:45 pm

brigitte wrote:A Moslem can have 3 wife and it is in the Koran that they have to be treated equally. My father did business with a rich man from the Middle East and one time he asked my father if my mother could accompany him to Dior to chose some clothes for his wifes. My mother was the same size as one of his wives. She went with him and he ordered 3 dresses, all the same ...My mother asked him why go to Dior to get 3 similar outfits and he said, he had to treat his wives equally and that no matter what he chose     they would fight if it was different ..The life of a polygamist is not easy..

Thanks for that one. The anecdote you describe is way beyond my learning experience and teaches me something.

Regarding the attacks on Paris….my Spanish teacher, who is Mexican, was asking me to explain what I thought happened. And why. He is well-educated, about 30 years old, very smart, but doesn't have much of a 'word view' and is always curious about what foreigners in his country think. Plus he trusts me since I've been with him over three years. All I could come up with was "Religious Fanatics"….and…"a few hundred years ago there were Christian fanatics doing the same thing". It was an interesting conversation and it certainly expanded my Spanish vocabulary, which was probably the whole point. He's a really good teacher of Spanish.

I'm from the United States. There is this great, old, dusty piece of paper that founded the country and talks clearly about "freedom of religion".

In my book, that also includes "freedom from religion.".
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Post by slainte39 on Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:43 am

brigitte wrote:atrocity, tragedy, it all fit I do not see why you would object to either description. It is a tragedy for all the victims and family..We  call it a tragedy in France.

I think the poster who was trying to make a distinction without a difference back on  page one was trying to take a political shot at the POTUS.
It shows how some people don't know how to grasp the parts of a problem that are really serious.

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Post by brigitte on Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:52 am

Frankly I do not believe it is a religion problem but a political one. What is happening is Isis or Daesh as we call them wants to have a State where Islam and the strictest version of Islam rules so they can take over other places and destroy the Western Civilization that is evil. They attack Paris because that is a good way to get the most publicity possible and the most recruits for their cause.
Most of the Isis army is foreign to Syria they come from all over the Middle East, they do have the support of locals as well...

In France we have several millions Moslems there are mostly Sunnis and most come from the ex colonies. When Algeria got independence, anyone from Algeria could apply for a French passport s Algeria was French. A large amount of French speaking Northrn African came , first the wealthier and most educated came as well as the colonists we call "black feet " they were put up in buildings built quickly in the 560´s, being educated they pretty promptly got out of the welfare system and settled all over France , many of them were professionals so it was not a problem then many of the uneducated poor also came , also went into the state buildings and many never got out and lived on welfare. These areas are ghettos where it is dangerous to go to , they have many disfunctional families..like in any of these type of situation , the kids run free and many of them commit all kinds of petty crimes and become drug dealers , thieves, pimps and cause trouble in general. Some kids and family come out ok but it is a very tough environemnt. The first generation is not the problem but the second and third generations are real problems they are kids without roots , suffering discrimination because they are poorly educated and many rather live off petty crimes than go to work..it is a differnt world.
Isis has programs like the big brother types and befriend thee kids by becoming their family, then they invite them to Syria and there they go through a barinwashing type of program not unlike what kids go through ewhen they go to the Marines..once they are stripped of their self worth they are rebuilt in the image Isis want to have and they are trained to kill and to kill people by becoming what we call kamikaze and then they go back and live in France where they are dormant until they are needed.They are expandable and there are many more where they come from. Their version of Islam is minimal, they are not religious kids to start with do not go to the mosk and only have notions of the Islm Isis want them to practice. We know we have a minimum 5 or 6 000 of these kids in France. The police has them on the radar but they cannot possibly monitor them 24/7, also like in the States their rights are protected by the laws.
The State of Emergency in France is basically your Marshall law ,our president who already has more power than the US President has all powers, we lose the right to assemble the police can arrest anyone and keep them as long as they need them, they do not need a warrent to go into houses that are suspect , they usually shoot to kill although it is not part of the rules,,,they can do it and so on. The parlement granted the President another 3 months so that is why you see the police doing 414 raids in 3 nights..most of the Isis kids are on the radar but it is very difficult to get them during regular time so the police is working double time to clean up the place,

In my opinion the bombing of Raqqa will only aggravate the situation because all the images of destruction and of moslems being killed reinforce the notion than France and other western culture are out to wipe out moslems. I really believe that in Franc we need to work and spend on money on social services and moving people out of ghettos and getting them to work , many kids should be taken away from their families, as it is moslem boys rule the roost, they are never repremended, father are inexistent and so on..tsame problem as in any ghetto. These kids need to be enrolled in programs and raised properly. It is a long term solution but the only solution. Also any person going to be trained in the Middle East should lose their passport and should be barred from coming back legally.
Meanwhile the large majority of Moslem is fine, they go to their church worship their Gofd and are no problem. My newphews have many Moslem friend, they are a product of the public school system so they do speak with an Arab accent althogh their father is from Spain, they and their friends are totally integrated, they are lawyers, architects , engineers etc.. Islam is not the problem, the problem is that Daesh have hijacked the religion to get the power and invade countries . Many countries in the Middle East are just about imporrsible to govern because of the various tribes, different sects ets.. they are artificial countries and only a dictator can rule them with an iron fist and terror..Isis is not differnt from the dictators and the guys in charge want their brand of Islam to rule..It is a war of civilization rather than religion and if oil was not involved everyone should get out and let them figure it out, only the people from those countries can solve their problems and we will all suffer until they figure it out and solve it but we should keep out as much as possible.

Most of the people still living in the ghettos inFrance are the hard chore of the people who do not want to work, want to live off the society and are a breeding ground for Daesh.

In a nutshell that is the situation and when I hear people talk about wiping out Moslems it mkes me shudder because we need the moslems to fight the battle .I see young Moslems and others in France get together and stick together so far in France and except in the right wing people are still sticking with the moslems they know, my largest fear is that that alliance falls apart. Moslems are like anyone else they want to leave their lives, raise their kids and left alone for the majority. A Moslem who should be named a hero stopped the kamikaze kids from entering the stadium where many could have been killed, this man is a true hero a whole lot more than the victims that had the bad luck to be at the wrong place at the right ime. In France we live with Mosems and we need them to be with us not against us.
When I hear Hilary push for the removal of the vicious dictator in Syria and do not offer any form of government , I see another disastre in the making. We should help Asad clean up Syria so he is vicious?? and Isis is no? Al the borders need to be reshape but it should be up to them not up to us meanwhile we should all work on our own problems of poverty and should help our own kids with education, health and so on. let the Middle East figure out its own problems.

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Post by brigitte on Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:55 am

Political shot at their own President , that makes a lot of sense in the times we are living..what idiots. So Obama is not perfect no president is, go and live under Daesh and then see how good we all have it in the West rather than argue about what the guy who is in charge is saying..what insanity.

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Post by viajero on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:30 am

Refugee vetting has a pretty good record in the US,of the 785,000 refugees allowed in since 9/11 only 3 have been arrested on terrorist related charges,according to (migration policy.org) as reported in the NYTimes today.

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Post by gringal on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:33 am

Thank you, Brigitte, for an intelligent post about the situation in France, and a thoughtful overview of the problem in general.

We could use more.

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Post by mattoleriver on Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:50 pm

viajero wrote:Refugee vetting has a pretty good record in the US,of the 785,000 refugees allowed in since 9/11 only 3 have been arrested on terrorist related charges,according to (migration policy.org) as reported in the NYTimes today.
784,997 still  out there? Paris Terriost Attack - Page 5 374777
Quick, grab the adult size Pampers, Republicans are going to be wetting themselves over this news!
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Post by diamondtuffy on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:28 pm

No, you're not interfering with my sleep cycle. However, I think you would benefit from a course in logic.
The rules governing asylum include, but do not require, that the applicant be in fear of his/her life because of the religion they adhere to.   It could be their political position instead.

That wasn't for your nap time, but for viajero who was bored. But, that's a good start, to admit it IS and has been a key part of the vetting process, religion IS allowed. Now, I'm seeing an estimated 30% of those attempting to come in as Syrian refugees are not Syrian? - does that automatically disqualify them? - I don't think anyone knows what the actual qualification or disqualification levels are, or are there any?

Now, let's look more specifically at ISIS, videos of beheadings show Christians as the victims, dozens if not hundreds, so by simple elimination muslims don't seem to be persecuted and yet that is the vast number of would be refugees - explain that.

Also, 72% incoming are young military age men - where are the wives, children, are there that many single men in Syria etc.? Why aren't they home defending their wives from rape and terror and their country? - why are they flooding into the EU? I don't have the answer, do you?

And, I notice my question as to why only one side of this discussion can be insulted but not mine was deleted, guess that probably speaks for itself?

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Post by gringal on Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:21 pm

You've managed to suggest that somehow religion enters into the refugee equation.  So what?  Should we keep 'em out or let 'em in, with a faith based test?  Not my problem, nor in my power to influence the Deciders.

If you don't want to go into the Tent Revival business, perhaps you should run for public office to obtain a platform for your sermons. Try a blog.  This forum is a poor place to look for those whose minds or hearts are going to change as a result of your words.  In the first place, nobody on here has the power to change the tide, the law or the outcome of an election.  
So: Dead Horse
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It's nap time.

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Post by David on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:28 pm

[/quote]Now, let's look more specifically at ISIS, videos of beheadings show Christians as the victims, dozens if not hundreds, so by simple elimination muslims don't seem to be persecuted and yet that is the vast number of would be refugees - explain that.

Also, 72% incoming are young military age men - where are the wives, children, are there that many single men in Syria etc.? Why aren't they home defending their wives from rape and terror and their country? - why are they flooding into the EU? I don't have the answer, do you?

And, I notice my question as to why only one side of this discussion can be insulted but not mine was deleted, guess that probably speaks for itself?[/quote]

Are you making the number up yourself or are you getting them from FOX? They're not even close.

BTW, most refugees are leaving because their homes and towns have been destroyed, not because of beheadings. Did you miss that part?
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Post by Playaboy on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:37 pm

There are hundreds of millions of people in our world that think these attackers as solders of Islam. Millions look upon the jihadist as revolutionaries.

One mans terrorist is another mans HERO.

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Post by diamondtuffy on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 pm

gringal wrote:You've managed to suggest that somehow religion enters into the refugee equation.  So what?  Should we keep 'em out or let 'em in, with a faith based test?  Not my problem, nor in my power to influence the Deciders.

If you don't want to go into the Tent Revival business, perhaps you should run for public office to obtain a platform for your sermons. Try a blog.  This forum is a poor place to look for those whose minds or hearts are going to change as a result of your words.  In the first place, nobody on here has the power to change the tide, the law or the outcome of an election.  
So: Dead Horse
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It's nap time.

Please Gringal, stop with the trivial Liberal throughout labels like tent revival etc, you demean you intellect.

Let me give you a HUGE wake up call - IN THIS FORUM, AND OTHERS, IF YOU VOTE IN AMERICAN ELECTIONS YOU INFLUENCE THE WORLD.

Religion, So What? - that is the crux of one of the current reasons to allow or disallow entry. Gringal says not my problem? - really, aw, contrarie, it is in all our purview unless you've renounced your citizenship - which I doubt. And yes, it is very distinctly in your purview to influence, assuming you still vote in the US for Congress people - and if you don't, then please politely exit this discussion because as in fact, you have no "skin in the game". You know moving 700 miles S of the border does not in any way negate your responsibilities for those left behind, your family, your neighbors or fellow citizens. You don't relinquish those responsibilities when you simply move South.

Now, it may seem a relatively safe place, unlikely the cartel will blow up the Ajijic Square, but, knowing what I know of the area it would be an easy corridor to move N to the border to cross into the US - do you actually want to be complicit in that?

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Post by David on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:44 pm

You should learn to spell.  People who can't spell are, by definition, illiterate.  BTW, it's 1400 miles to the border from here.


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Post by David on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:47 pm

Playaboy wrote:There are hundreds of millions of people in our world that think these attackers as solders of Islam.  Millions look upon the jihadist as revolutionaries.

One mans terrorist is another mans HERO.  

OK, is it "hundreds of millions," or "millions." That's two orders of magnitude difference. I seriously doubt it's either.
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