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Post by Smartalex on Sat May 30, 2015 11:44 pm

With Operation Jalisco and the hunt for CJNG leader El Mencho underway, thought I'd start a new thread in order to keep the information under one title. Feel free to add to the topic as things develop. Here's a news story about the capture of CJNG operative Victor Manuel Garcia Orozco in Tlajomulco earlier this week. Garcia has been operating pretty close to home, including Poncitlan and La Barca.

Cae presunto integrante de Cártel Jalisco
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion-mexico/2015/detienen-fuerzas-federales-a-presunto-integrante-del-cjng-1103445.html
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Post by Smartalex on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Not surprised to find there is a lot of sympathy for the 42 supposed gangsters who were killed by government forces in Tanhuato. Parents of the dead claim they were tortured and then executed. From The Washington Post...

Residents in a Mexican neighborhood miss the cartel that protected them
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/residents-in-a-mexican-neighborhood-miss-the-cartel-that-protected-them/2015/05/29/049537de-032f-11e5-93f4-f24d4af7f97d_story.html
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Post by Intercasa on Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:38 am

Poor criminals. Why not ostracize the families so that they will think twice when not discouraging their children from hurting others
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Post by slainte39 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:07 am

The police can't win the complete public opinion thing.  They either don't do enough, or they do too much.
After 5 police were gunned down in Ocotlan and another 15 near Mascota, why is  anyone surprised at the outcome of the Tanhuato operation.
It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who was working at that ranch, even with the "Robin Hood" spin to their glorious activities, such as protecting the ladies in the barrio from drunks. Rolling Eyes
Some them had to be associated with the ambush and murder of the 5 police in Ocotlan. It probably wasn't pretty and clean justice, but justice of a sort, because after all, it is a war.
Hard for me to be judgmental.

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Post by Whitey Disley on Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:58 am

Intercasa wrote:Poor criminals.  Why not ostracize the families so that they will think twice when not discouraging their children from hurting others

Amazing, a lawyer with no concept of human rights. I tried to discourage my children from doing many things. As did my parents with me and my siblings. Neither of us had a 100% success rate.

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Post by CanuckBob on Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:18 am

Really!!! You are going to defend these dirt bag cholos now? I think the authorities should conduct all their raids with the same vigor. Extreme prejudice.......just like the movies Whitey.
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Post by slainte39 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:25 am

Whitey Disley wrote:
Intercasa wrote:Poor criminals.  Why not ostracize the families so that they will think twice when not discouraging their children from hurting others

Amazing, a lawyer with no concept of human rights. I tried to discourage my children from doing many things. As did my parents with me and my siblings. Neither of us had a 100% success rate.


Yeah, I doubt seriously, that would do much good or change anything.
There needs to be a whole lot more social change made in Mexico, to have a real impact on crime, people's attitude about police and governance itself, and the improvement of the moral fiber of the "pueblo".  Too much of the "every man for himself attitude", starting with "El Presidente".

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Post by Whitey Disley on Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:36 am

CanuckBob wrote:Really!!! You are going to defend these dirt bag cholos now? I think the authorities should conduct all their raids with the same vigor. Extreme prejudice.......just like the movies Whitey.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking. You missed the point completely. I didn't defend the dead in any way, shape or form. The other poster called for ostracizing the families assuming that they failed somehow in raising their sons. One can be a good parent and still have their children follow the wrong path.


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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:04 pm

Whitey Disley wrote:
Intercasa wrote:Poor criminals.  Why not ostracize the families so that they will think twice when not discouraging their children from hurting others

Amazing, a lawyer with no concept of human rights. I tried to discourage my children from doing many things. As did my parents with me and my siblings. Neither of us had a 100% success rate.
Well said.

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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:09 pm

slainte39 wrote:
It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who was working at that ranch, even with the "Robin Hood" spin to their glorious activities, such as protecting the ladies in the barrio from drunks. Rolling Eyes
Is that some ignorant bullshit or what? Rolling Eyes

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Post by CanuckBob on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:18 pm

Whitey Disley wrote:
CanuckBob wrote:Really!!! You are going to defend these dirt bag cholos now? I think the authorities should conduct all their raids with the same vigor. Extreme prejudice.......just like the movies Whitey.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking. You missed the point completely. I didn't defend the dead in any way, shape or form. The other poster called for ostracizing the families assuming that they failed somehow in raising their sons. One can be a good parent and still have their children follow the wrong path.


It's not lacking at all. You spoke of "human rights". So whose human rights, in your statement, should "the lawyer" show empathy for? It seems to me that the point was that some of these family members are defending these guys as well.


Last edited by CanuckBob on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Playaboy on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:19 pm

slainte39 wrote:The police can't win the complete public opinion thing.  They either don't do enough, or they do too much.
After 5 police were gunned down in Ocotlan and another 15 near Mascota, why is  anyone surprised at the outcome of the Tanhuato operation.
It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who was working at that ranch, even with the "Robin Hood" spin to their glorious activities, such as protecting the ladies in the barrio from drunks. Rolling Eyes
Some them had to be associated with the ambush and murder of the 5 police in Ocotlan. It probably wasn't pretty and clean justice, but justice of a sort, because after all, it is a war.
Hard for me to be judgmental.

What kind of war is this? A Civil War? Revolutionary War? Gang War?

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Post by Intercasa on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:50 pm

If the people dont self correct or shame or ostracize to deter aberrant behavior then it will be accepted and nobody will be motivated to teach values nor control their offspring.
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Post by Whitey Disley on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:57 pm

Intercasa wrote:If the people dont self correct or shame or ostracize to deter aberrant behavior then it will  be accepted and nobody will be motivated to teach values nor control their offspring.  

And who says they haven't taught values to their children? You?

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Post by Whitey Disley on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:03 pm

CanuckBob wrote:
Whitey Disley wrote:
CanuckBob wrote:Really!!! You are going to defend these dirt bag cholos now? I think the authorities should conduct all their raids with the same vigor. Extreme prejudice.......just like the movies Whitey.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking. You missed the point completely. I didn't defend the dead in any way, shape or form. The other poster called for ostracizing the families assuming that they failed somehow in raising their sons. One can be a good parent and still have their children follow the wrong path.


It's not lacking at all. You spoke of "human rights". So whose human rights, in your statement, should "the lawyer" show empathy for? It seems to me that the point was that some of these family members are defending these guys as well.

I didn't say anything about empathy. Solely respecting people's rights. And I shed no tears for the dead bad guys. Nor the dead "good" guys either. But I do lament the complete breakdown in the rule of law. This little skirmish won't do jack shit to alleviate the problems created by drug prohibition. There are a million more assholes on both sides willing to continue the status quo. At least the US had the sense of getting out of the unwinnable war in Vietnam. This is another unwinnable war but as long as the dead are not gringos then who gives a shit?

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Post by Intercasa on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:04 pm

Yes me when I see them in the gang banger outfits drinking in the streets at age 15 late at night, where are the parents? When the parents know their kids didnt finish primaria but have nice trucks and money and dont ask dont tell rules or when they use plausible deniability.

We are all in this together, how will people change and modify behavior? Is the easy road to riches and death the way to go, if there is a way to stop or deter someone isnt this a better plan instead of watching them go to slaughter?
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Post by Whitey Disley on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:09 pm

Intercasa wrote:Yes me when I see them in the gang banger outfits drinking in the streets at age 15 late at night, where are the parents?  When the parents know their kids didnt finish primaria but have nice trucks and money and dont ask dont tell rules or when they use plausible deniability.  

We are all in this together, how will people change and modify behavior?  Is the easy road to riches and death the way to go, if there is a way to stop or deter someone isnt this a better plan instead of watching them go to slaughter?

Yeah and the little  gringos keep firing up joints and shoving powder up their noses. Maybe their parents should practice what you preach. In fact there are a few adults on this very forum that brag subtly about smoking weed. That's just putting more money in the gang members pockets.

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Post by Smartalex on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:57 pm

Playaboy wrote:
slainte39 wrote:The police can't win the complete public opinion thing.  They either don't do enough, or they do too much.
After 5 police were gunned down in Ocotlan and another 15 near Mascota, why is  anyone surprised at the outcome of the Tanhuato operation.
It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who was working at that ranch, even with the "Robin Hood" spin to their glorious activities, such as protecting the ladies in the barrio from drunks. Rolling Eyes
Some them had to be associated with the ambush and murder of the 5 police in Ocotlan. It probably wasn't pretty and clean justice, but justice of a sort, because after all, it is a war.
Hard for me to be judgmental.

What kind of war is this?  A Civil War?  Revolutionary War?  Gang War?  

I think the general population of Mexico perceives this as a gang war. You have the various cartels on one side and the various police agencies on the other...two gangs fighting a turf war.
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Post by slainte39 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:51 pm

Playaboy wrote:
slainte39 wrote:The police can't win the complete public opinion thing.  They either don't do enough, or they do too much.
After 5 police were gunned down in Ocotlan and another 15 near Mascota, why is  anyone surprised at the outcome of the Tanhuato operation.
It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who was working at that ranch, even with the "Robin Hood" spin to their glorious activities, such as protecting the ladies in the barrio from drunks. Rolling Eyes
Some them had to be associated with the ambush and murder of the 5 police in Ocotlan. It probably wasn't pretty and clean justice, but justice of a sort, because after all, it is a war.
Hard for me to be judgmental.

What kind of war is this?  A Civil War?  Revolutionary War?  Gang War?  



None of the above, or in a very limited definition of the types of wars you mention, all of the above.

It was a hyperbolic statement describing events that are transpiring between various policing authorities and various cartels that involves the use of heavy weapons and results in quite a few deaths, including some collateral damage and casualties.
Also, as in war, there is the possibility of inappropriate misconduct, or criminal conduct, by the side you perceive as "the right side".  It happened in Nam, it happened in  Iraq, and probably some other wars as well.

Sorry to confuse you, or mislead you, with hyperbole.

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Post by Smartalex on Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:03 am

And not surprised to find that El Mencho was both well known and well respected in the small rural community where he lived. From Mexico News Daily...

In this Jalisco town El Mencho walked freely
http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/in-this-jalisco-town-el-mencho-walked-freely/
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Post by Smartalex on Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:32 pm

Ruben Oseguera, son of CJNG leader Nemesio Oseguera, was arrested in Zapopan this morning. From Mexico News Daily...

Jalisco cartel’s #2 caught in Zapopan
http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/jalisco-cartels-2-caught-in-zapopan/
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Post by viajero on Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:56 pm

He was arrested in January with 25 million pesos and weapons but some paid off "judge" let him go due to "lack of evidence",the judges here are a bad joke,last week one in Baja let a Russian woman go free who had confessed to murdering and dismemebering her sister and mother,due to lack of evidence,que pendejos.

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Post by Smartalex on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:13 pm

You're not being fair to the judge in Baja. The Russian woman was released due to a lack of evidence to corroborate her confession. When the prosecutor presented corroborating evidence, the same judge issued an arrest warrant. The Russian woman was rearrested and has now denied her confession.
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Post by viajero on Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:16 pm

Smartalex wrote:You're not being fair to the judge in Baja. The Russian woman was released due to a lack of evidence to corroborate her confession. When the prosecutor presented corroborating evidence, the same judge issued an arrest warrant. The Russian woman was rearrested and has now denied her confession.
The judge in Baja is an idiot and the only reason she issued the warrant was because she was being ridiculed and was under pressure,she should have never released that crazy bitch in the first place.

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Post by Smartalex on Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:08 pm

viajero wrote:
Smartalex wrote:You're not being fair to the judge in Baja. The Russian woman was released due to a lack of evidence to corroborate her confession. When the prosecutor presented corroborating evidence, the same judge issued an arrest warrant. The Russian woman was rearrested and has now denied her confession.
The judge in Baja is an idiot and the only reason she issued the warrant was because she was being ridiculed and was under pressure,she should have never released that crazy bitch in the first place.

Your assessment of this judge is probably true. However, I think the recent judicial reforms now require corroborating evidence when a "confession" is obtained by the authorities.
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