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How safe is Mexico?

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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:08 am

Zedinmexico wrote:  We took rifles shotguns handguns to school and never killed anyone that I
heard of.
Yeah,my school was the same way...til some stupid fourth grader brought his bazooka which led the school district to change their policy on bringing firearms into the class room. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes 

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Post by hockables on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:16 am

Osoprehistorico wrote:There are too many mass killings in the US, many in schools.  Which do you feel is the bigger issue, mental health problems or availability of guns?  How would any imposed law reduce the guns already legally acquired?  Without gun availability would there be more suicide bombers?  The bombers at the Boston marathon did not use guns but did considerable damage.  Even if you repealed the 2nd amendment guns would be plentiful for 100 years.  This is a difficult problem needing more than knee jerk reactions and naive assumptions.



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Post by CheenaGringo on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:17 am

We played with hand grenades when in the 4th and 5th grades.

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Post by CHILLIN on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:19 am

What is killing people, all people, in Mexico is not lead - but out of control steel and liquid candy. More young men, up to 35 years, are likely to die in car crashes in Mexico than all men in the U.S.A. (not even factoring in the population difference and vehicle ownership ratios).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-08-13-tourist-deaths_N.htm?csp=34
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Post by brigitte on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:32 am

yes why not change the subject, we are not talking about car acidents but guns and guns kill plenty in Mexico too.

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Post by Pedro on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:45 am

ever make a mortar outta the spinner in a washing machine?
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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:19 pm

As the author of the "most asinine and ludicrous post ever on this forum",  realize that there seems to be no other way to get the message of the huge scope and magnitude of US violence and killing for no reason other than:   the many seriously angry and seriously troubled Americans who take up guns and - shoot their class mates,   - go into restaurants and shoot police officers eating lunch,   - shoot their teachers,  - shoot their co-workers,  or shoot classroom after classrom of children whom they've never met.

If simply showing a list of just the last 4 years of American-on-American violence in just our schools - to allow people to visually get a sense of just how crazy things are  -  is labelled  "asinine and ludicrous" by one individual,   maybe it shows how troubled that critic may be.

Yes, Americans living in and visiting Mexico are safer here, than they are back home.
Does it really matter that a real estate website has posted the facts on their website?

The overall point is:
"Guns and violence are destroying civil society on both sides of the border.
Is this the legacy we want to leave to our children and grandchildren?
"


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Post by CanuckBob on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:21 pm

Don't worry snowyco, you are far, far, far away from having the "most asinine and ludicrous post ever on this forum". Not even close amigo!!!
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Post by kipissippi on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:28 pm

For 16 years we have never locked our doors and left keys in the vehicles... we have never been robbed or broken into.  Of course we have a lot of fur kids with big mouths.  We're about 45 minutes from Memphis..and they've had problems... but the problems of big cities ..are usually in big cities.  To read this  thread you'd swear the whole country was a war.  T'aint so.  I guess everyone has their own reality.
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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:35 pm

CanuckBob wrote:Don't worry snowyco, you are far, far, far away from having the "most asinine and ludicrous post ever on this forum". Not even close amigo!!!
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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:36 pm

snowyco wrote:
Does it really matter that a real estate website has posted the facts on their website?

The facts?
Snowyco,what's your take on the statistics on the rate of kidnappings in Canada vs Mexico that they posted?

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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:46 pm

The higher official kidnapping rates for Canada, which include Canadian non-custodial parents snatching their kids, are likely higher than Mexico's official kidnapping rates, partly due to gross under-reporting of crime in Mexico, combined with Mexico's high rates of Catholicism and low divorce rates.

I personally have experienced much lower crime reporting rates in Mexico than the USA, because in the USA we had to file police reports to get insurance settlements on damages and thefts.   In Mexico, it's clear that just like in the USA, the police generally can do almost nothing after the crime is committed - which means we have not reported the thefts we've experienced here.  I have reported extortion attempts here from bogus express secuestros.

TV and other media news overblows,  distorts, and misreports so much and so often,  can we really believe the news reports from Canada, the USA, or Mexico?    e.g. Drunken Canadians drown in Mexico - and Canadian media reports that they were murdered - while their legal Blood Alcohol levels came back over 0.45 BAC.   Drunken Canadians fall off 3'rd floor hotel balconies, dead from broken necks,  after 14 hr binge drinking sessions,  and Canadian media reports that the police beat them to death.

Truth is hard to find,  but:    It's very clear that the USA has had a mass shooting of innocents or strangers every 5 days.

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Post by Zedinmexico on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:08 pm

CheenaGringo wrote:We played with hand grenades when in the 4th and 5th grades.


Laugh out Loud. I think we did lots of things that would not be allowed anymore. We use to sight in at school before hunting season with all the adults. Never seen so many guns at a school. No one got hurt but we did have lots of good role models for gun behavior and they did pound it into out heads and tell us horror stories so we
learned to be careful. Now a street tough kid gets a gun and where is he going to shoot and practice especially if it is a secret gun?

Z

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Post by Ricardo on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:10 pm

kipissippi wrote:For 16 years we have never locked our doors and left keys in the vehicles... we have never been robbed or broken into.  Of course we have a lot of fur kids with big mouths.  We're about 45 minutes from Memphis..and they've had problems... but the problems of big cities ..are usually in big cities.  To read this  thread you'd swear the whole country was a war.  T'aint so.  I guess everyone has their own reality.
In case anyone is interested in the facts rather than media hysteria, the murder rate in the U. S. is the lowest it has been since reliable records have been kept (the late 70's) and the number of people killed in mass shootings averages a few dozen per year, far too low to even register above 0 per 100,000 of population.

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Post by brigitte on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:21 pm

I am sure the families of the victims would look at it this way too. So by no means let´s keep going..

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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:42 pm

Ricardo wrote:
kipissippi wrote:For 16 years we have never locked our doors and left keys in the vehicles... we have never been robbed or broken into.  Of course we have a lot of fur kids with big mouths.  We're about 45 minutes from Memphis..and they've had problems... but the problems of big cities ..are usually in big cities.  To read this  thread you'd swear the whole country was a war.  T'aint so.  I guess everyone has their own reality.
In case anyone is interested in the facts rather than media hysteria, the murder rate in the U. S. is the lowest it has been since reliable records have been kept (the late 70's) and the number of people killed in mass shootings averages a few dozen per year, far too low to even register above 0 per 100,000 of population.

These facts are true,  but they ignore several very telling back-stories and they ignore thoughtful analyses and lead to false assumptions and mistaken conclusions.

The person pulling the trigger is the main important factor, followed by "why" they pull the trigger.

The violence and overall violent crime rates from the period when US murder rates were at their highest was due to criminals .   Criminals were people who made a living from crime   versus the current crop of nut-jobs  who just shoot and maim strangers because they are angry with the world,  or angry with their boss,   or   the girls didn't like them,   or they hate the government.

Back in the 1980's and 1990's when violent crime rates (including homocides) were at their highest,   the typical killer criminal  was a thug...   and he was operating in a bad 'hood.     We could choose to stay out of the bad 'hoods

Now,   the overall violent crime rates are down - especially the homicide rates -  
Why?   Freakonomics say that millions of data points say:  It is because Roe v. Wade allowed shite loads of poor women to get legal abortions,  greatly reducing the numbers of future criminals growing up with shitty abusive childhoods,  and -bingo- like clockwork,  non-drug crimes started to drop precipitously 18 years later,    as the average age of criminals from bad 'hoods rose dramatically,   as teen crime rates and 20-something crime rates dropped steadily and precipitously after 1990.

Now,   with fewer criminals from bad 'hoods making their livings from violent crime,  the type of today's killer  has shifted to    - angry  people  who randomly shoot strangers at McDonalds,   shoot strangers in schools,   shoot teachers,  shoot sorority girls who won't date them,    shoot classroom after classroom of kids they never met,  and set off bombs at Boston Marathon    to maim and injure people they never intended to meet.

The old-school killers   would beat you,  stab you,  terrorize you,  or shoot you  to rob you or to steal your car or steal your bling.  It was a one-on-one thing - up-close and personal - and we knew what parts of town to stay out of,  to avoid the thugs.   Stay out of big parts of New Orleans,   stay out of bad 'hoods in DC,   stay out of Detroit,   stay out of bad 'hoods in NYC and LA.

Back in the day,  you knew not to screw with some guy in a bar,   cause they might be packin'.

Today's US killers go into any  Dennys,   or Walmart,   or your local elementary school and start blasting, simply out of anger or frustration....

=>  Big Difference  between back when US homicide rates were higher - yet isolated - versus now with 1,000's of whack-O's with assault rifles shooting people, randomly, across the USA - in small towns, rural areas, mid-sized cities, - in public - in broad daylight.

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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:51 pm

viajero wrote:
snowyco wrote:
Does it really matter that a real estate website has posted the facts on their website?

The facts?
Snowyco,what's your take on the statistics on the rate of kidnappings in Canada vs Mexico that they posted?

snowyco wrote:The higher official kidnapping rates for Canada, which include Canadian non-custodial parents snatching their kids, are likely higher than Mexico's official kidnapping rates, partly due to gross under-reporting of crime in Mexico, combined with Mexico's high rates of Catholicism and low divorce rates.
BS...the realtors made a piss poor attempt to manipulate statistics in order to sell their product.
You are either being disingenous or are simply clueless in regards to the prevalence of violent crime in Mexico.

BTW,Mexico ranks#1 in the world for ransom kidnappings,which is the kind of kidnapping most people think of when the word is mentioned.That's a disturbing fact...

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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:31 pm

viajero wrote:
viajero wrote:
snowyco wrote:
Does it really matter that a real estate website has posted the facts on their website?

The facts?
Snowyco,what's your take on the statistics on the rate of kidnappings in Canada vs Mexico that they posted?

snowyco wrote:The higher official kidnapping rates for Canada, which include Canadian non-custodial parents snatching their kids, are likely higher than Mexico's official kidnapping rates, partly due to gross under-reporting of crime in Mexico, combined with Mexico's high rates of Catholicism and low divorce rates.
BS...the realtors made a piss poor attempt to manipulate statistics in order to sell their product.
You are either being disingenous or are simply clueless in regards to the prevalence of violent crime in Mexico.

BTW,Mexico ranks#1 in the world for ransom kidnappings,which is the kind of kidnapping most people think of when the word is mentioned.That's a disturbing fact...

"BS...the realtors made a piss poor attempt to manipulate statistics in order to sell their product."
OK,   that's an interesting opinion.

Please show us verified high-quality statistics to back up your personal opinions.

It's cheap & easy to sling-mud,   make vague criticizms,  and  to claim other people's actual efforts are BS,  but when the rubber meets th' road,  people with integrity back up their personal opinions and claims with verifiable facts.

"Guns and violence are destroying civil society on both sides of the border.
Is this the legacy we want to leave to our children and grandchildren?
"

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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:48 pm

snowyco wrote:
Please show us verified high-quality statistics to back up your personal opinions.
Google;(kidnappings by country).

Your attempts to dodge the questions I've asked you in this thread are pathetic in my opinion.

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Post by CHILLIN on Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:55 pm

Ole Snowy never lets the facts get in the way of a good chance to scare people. He is like the old time 'fire and brimstone' preachers, who takes the bible as facts. When challenged, he polishes up his halo, and plays the 'integrity' card.
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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:22 pm

viajero wrote:
snowyco wrote:
Please show us verified high-quality statistics to back up your personal opinions.
Google;(kidnappings by country).

Your attempts to dodge the questions I've asked you in this thread are pathetic in my opinion.

In other words, you have no data and no results and no research findings that show that Mexico is more dangerous for American and Canadian visitors and guests in Mexico,  than staying home in Canada or the USA....

... because that is the point of the original report's data analyses,    
.... and that is the point of the original report's conclusions - to evaluate the risks for tourists and visitors -

not to describe the risks of kidnappings of Mexicans who live in bad areas as critics propose.

Remember the Real Conclusions:
Mexico is safer for American and Canadian visitors,   than those visitors are when back home.

All the critics,  so far,   have talked only about the nationwide average risks that Mexicans face....   and face it,   Mexicans live in lots of dangerous places - places that American tourists and visitors   don't go....  

That's why I made comparisons that described avoiding dangerous places like Detroit,  New Orleans,  and  for Mexico:  Tampico,  Juarez,  Vera Cruz,   Tamaulipas,  to make honest representative evaluations.  When considering the risks Americans face back home in the USA - we must include:   the mass shootings every 5 days  - random bombings - ordinary people going postal with assault rifles -  shooting up movie theaters,  shooting up elementary school classrooms,   shooting up sorority houses,  shooting strangers randomly on the streets,   due to their personal anger boiling over -  all real and tangible risks for all Americans when in America -  risks that simply do not exist in the tourist areas and expat-enclaves Americans visit and stay in Mexico.

The only way the critics here can support their personal biased opinions is to present heavily biased analyses using data for all Mexicans -  while Americans and Canadians in Mexico clearly do not live like the typical Mexican,   nor do they live in typical Mexican areas.

American and Canadian families visiting resort areas  and  expat enclaves simply are safer  than they are back home,  

and yes,  the Americans and Canadians are safer than the average Mexican family - living in Monterrey,  Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, Tampico, Juarez, or Vera Cruz -  but that was not the point of the OP  nor the point of this discussion.

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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:55 pm

CHILLIN wrote:Ole Snowy never lets the facts get in the way of a good chance to scare people. He is like the old time 'fire and brimstone' preachers, who takes the bible as facts. When challenged, he polishes up his halo, and plays the 'integrity' card.

Note that the people who are sniping can only make their points by changing the premise -  trotting out  irrelevant facts and presenting them as pertinent -  hoping no one will notice that they are answering a different question   and  addressing different issues than the thread is about.

Are those tactics honest?  

It's easy to set up straw-men,   make fake effigies,  set them alight...  and declare victory.

It's easy to question people's integrity,  when the critics subtly change topics but make it appear they are addressing the OP's original points.      

Said another way:   When was the last time someone came into our expat community's schools (here in Mexico), and shot children at random? ... It's happening every 5 days in the USA...

How many Americans and Canadians died in Mexico last year due to random shootings, or the last 4 years, or
due to random bombings like the Boston Marathon bombing,  or were  shot in their local Mexican Walmart?   => 0

Why not stick to the original points?  

Typical Americans and Canadians visiting Mexico (and living in expat enclaves)  are safer than they are back in their home countries.

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Post by viajero on Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:22 pm

snowyco wrote: but that was not the point of the OP  nor the point of this discussion.
Snowyco,re-read the OP and the first replies to it,it was poking fun at the article and the source of it,but that apparently went right over your head.
I've followed the local and national news,in Spanish,thru the media and just from talking with family and friends ever since I moved to Guadalajara,your take on violence and crime in Mexico simply doesn't jive with reality.

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Post by snowyco on Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:03 pm

viajero wrote:
snowyco wrote: but that was not the point of the OP  nor the point of this discussion.
Snowyco,re-read the OP and the first replies to it,it was poking fun at the article and the source of it,but that apparently went right over your head.
I've followed the local and national news,in Spanish,thru the media and just from talking with family and friends ever since I moved to Guadalajara,your take on violence and crime in Mexico simply doesn't jive with reality.

Again,   how many American visitors to Mexico have been killed?

How many Canadian visitors have been killed?

How many Canadians and Americans have been kidnapped in Mexico?

Those are the points of the plots.

Please,   give us real data about the physical risks that American and Canadian visitors and guests in Mexico actually face,   based on real data from tourist areas and expat-enclaves.

or   Just say that you don't know.  
which is OK....

What's the truth?

Do you or the other critics have any real counts of Americans harmed or killed in tourist areas and expat-enclaves?

...and no,  Canadian media's lurid false accounts of Mexican police supposedly beating Canadians to death, don't count, especially when the dead Canadian's friends later admit they had been on a 14 hr drinking binge, and that their friend actually fell, drunk,  over a 3'rd floor railing.  

Have all the critical comments  on this thread been based only on  intuition,  imaginings,  worries, and personal fears?

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Post by Lady Otter Latté on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:50 am

"... a little off topic"?  Very Happy 
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:13 am

From Insight Crime...

Mexico Toughens Kidnapping Sentences as Abductions Continue to Rise

http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/mexico-toughens-kidnapping-sentences-as-abductions-continue-to-rise
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