Hiway robbery in Tonala?

I am headed out the door to the closest church to say a Novena to St. Jude to protect a close friend who was driving this route to/from Tonala today.

jackak10 wrote:

CanuckBob wrote:I called your comment stupid not you. Most Mexicans I know don't seem to trust the police at any level. Talk with your Mexican neighbors. This is nothing new and certainly not restricted to this part of Mexico.

A distinction without a difference. I know that Mexicans don't trust the police. I don't trust the police in the US but I don't expect to be physically assaulted and robbed by them.

We visited Chapala for a week two Thanksgivings ago and really liked it. For months we checked out real estate web sites and made some trips there to look at property. Then somehow it began to darken. We still looked, but something was changing. Now? It's too much for us. I don't know why I keep looking on these boards, my wife quit a long time ago. I guess, believe it or not, that I'm looking for posts telling how the mayor, or governor, or police chief, or SOMEONE is actually doing something to stop it. What I see from the politicians is that we should not post anything negative, in the name of "security".

You (and others) don't like my comments. You are committed to staying there, and that is your choice. I've spent my whole life not having to hide behind walls with broken glass and razor wire on top, and I'm not going to start now.

I'm sure this post will draw many responses about how stupid I am, and how Detroit is more dangerous, and how terrible Manzanillo is. Heard them all already.

Well this area was considered safer just a few years ago so it is pretty naive to think that you are immune there. I think that is what some (including me) may dislike about your comments.

Anyhow enjoy the beach and forget about it. The weather is beautiful here today with a nice breeze blowing off the lake. 81 degrees with 41% humidity. Paradise indeed.

CanuckBob wrote:

jackak10 wrote:

CanuckBob wrote:I called your comment stupid not you. Most Mexicans I know don't seem to trust the police at any level. Talk with your Mexican neighbors. This is nothing new and certainly not restricted to this part of Mexico.

A distinction without a difference. I know that Mexicans don't trust the police. I don't trust the police in the US but I don't expect to be physically assaulted and robbed by them.

We visited Chapala for a week two Thanksgivings ago and really liked it. For months we checked out real estate web sites and made some trips there to look at property. Then somehow it began to darken. We still looked, but something was changing. Now? It's too much for us. I don't know why I keep looking on these boards, my wife quit a long time ago. I guess, believe it or not, that I'm looking for posts telling how the mayor, or governor, or police chief, or SOMEONE is actually doing something to stop it. What I see from the politicians is that we should not post anything negative, in the name of "security".

You (and others) don't like my comments. You are committed to staying there, and that is your choice. I've spent my whole life not having to hide behind walls with broken glass and razor wire on top, and I'm not going to start now.

I'm sure this post will draw many responses about how stupid I am, and how Detroit is more dangerous, and how terrible Manzanillo is. Heard them all already.

Well this area was considered safer just a few years ago so it is pretty naive to think that you are immune there. I think that is what some (including me) may dislike about your comments.

Anyhow enjoy the beach and forget about it. The weather is beautiful here today with a nice breeze blowing off the lake. 81 degrees with 41% humidity. Paradise indeed.

We know we are not immune to anything. A little over a year ago there was a shoot-out one night on the other side of town and the police station had a hand grenade thrown at it from a moto. In four years, that has been the extent of the violence in Manzanillo. Well, there was a couple of methed-out hobos swinging machetes at each other that one time.

Believe it or not, a few months ago it was front-page news that there seemed to be a band of daring daylight burglars climbing into people's back yards and stealing ladies underwear.

Right now it's 86 degrees, 77% humidity and I'll admit, it's sticky. But, all winter I can put the top down on my car and drive around at ten PM wearing a T-shirt.

jackak10 wrote:

CanuckBob wrote:I called your comment stupid not you. Most Mexicans I know don't seem to trust the police at any level. Talk with your Mexican neighbors. This is nothing new and certainly not restricted to this part of Mexico.

A distinction without a difference. I know that Mexicans don't trust the police. I don't trust the police in the US but I don't expect to be physically assaulted and robbed by them.

We visited Chapala for a week two Thanksgivings ago and really liked it. For months we checked out real estate web sites and made some trips there to look at property. Then somehow it began to darken. We still looked, but something was changing. Now? It's too much for us. I don't know why I keep looking on these boards, my wife quit a long time ago. I guess, believe it or not, that I'm looking for posts telling how the mayor, or governor, or police chief, or SOMEONE is actually doing something to stop it. What I see from the politicians is that we should not post anything negative, in the name of "security".

You (and others) don't like my comments. You are committed to staying there, and that is your choice. I've spent my whole life not having to hide behind walls with broken glass and razor wire on top, and I'm not going to start now.

I'm sure this post will draw many responses about how stupid I am, and how Detroit is more dangerous, and how terrible Manzanillo is. Heard them all already.

Presumably Jackak10, you have never travelled to Europe. Entire cities are walled, almost everyone has bars on their windows, most have roll down metal window covers for use at night. Those of us who have spent our lives traveling are not shocked or appalled by these measures, they are the norm. What you seem to wish to preserve is your insular Canadian and or American vision of what life ought to be like.

Newsflash, life everywhere has changed. After a lengthy series of phone calls to Toronto yesterday I heard numerous reports of greatly increased crime in the city. Schools on temporary lockdown, violent crime in broad daylight, and shootings, also in broad daylight.

So let's really consider what living here means to me. It means I acknowledge and accept that life has changed everywhere. I also acknowledge and accept that living in a house which already has walls, decorative bars an alarm system and an electric fence means that I am already prepared for the altered world we have already entered, except perhaps Manzanillo, for the moment.

Would I wish to return to Canada? Not a chance. Why? Most Canadians are still living in denial of the new and vastly more dangerous reality, as is everyone else who fails to realize that things have changed, and that this change is very likely permanent.

The naive belief that open properties, open doors, and unprotected windows is a viable option in a violent world is an outdated idea that has only survived for a very brief period in history, and primarily in the U.S. and Canada.

Let us hope for your sake that Manzanillo continues to be the one and only truly safe haven on the entire planet.

Actually E-raq, in Canada, the national crime rate has been falling steadily for the past 20 years and is now at its lowest level since 1973.

The Crime Severity Index reached its lowest point (82.7) since 1998 (first year for which Index data are available) The decline in crime severity was seen virtually across the country. The only exceptions were increases in Newfoundland and Labrador, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

Of course that's overall crime but decreases were also reported for many violent offences - homicide, attempted murder, serious assaults and robbery. Although some offences did show an increase, including sexual assault, use/discharge of a firearm, criminal harassment, child pornography and drug offences.

The general perception is that violent crime is increasing but it isn't borne out in the statistics.

E-raq wrote:

jackak10 wrote:

CanuckBob wrote:I called your comment stupid not you. Most Mexicans I know don't seem to trust the police at any level. Talk with your Mexican neighbors. This is nothing new and certainly not restricted to this part of Mexico.

A distinction without a difference. I know that Mexicans don't trust the police. I don't trust the police in the US but I don't expect to be physically assaulted and robbed by them.

We visited Chapala for a week two Thanksgivings ago and really liked it. For months we checked out real estate web sites and made some trips there to look at property. Then somehow it began to darken. We still looked, but something was changing. Now? It's too much for us. I don't know why I keep looking on these boards, my wife quit a long time ago. I guess, believe it or not, that I'm looking for posts telling how the mayor, or governor, or police chief, or SOMEONE is actually doing something to stop it. What I see from the politicians is that we should not post anything negative, in the name of "security".

You (and others) don't like my comments. You are committed to staying there, and that is your choice. I've spent my whole life not having to hide behind walls with broken glass and razor wire on top, and I'm not going to start now.

I'm sure this post will draw many responses about how stupid I am, and how Detroit is more dangerous, and how terrible Manzanillo is. Heard them all already.

Presumably Jackak10, you have never travelled to Europe. Entire cities are walled, almost everyone has bars on their windows, most have roll down metal window covers for use at night. Those of us who have spent our lives traveling are not shocked or appalled by these measures, they are the norm. What you seem to wish to preserve is your insular Canadian and or American vision of what life ought to be like.

Newsflash, life everywhere has changed. After a lengthy series of phone calls to Toronto yesterday I heard numerous reports of greatly increased crime in the city. Schools on temporary lockdown, violent crime in broad daylight, and shootings, also in broad daylight.

So let's really consider what living here means to me. It means I acknowledge and accept that life has changed everywhere. I also acknowledge and accept that living in a house which already has walls, decorative bars an alarm system and an electric fence means that I am already prepared for the altered world we have already entered, except perhaps Manzanillo, for the moment.

Would I wish to return to Canada? Not a chance. Why? Most Canadians are still living in denial of the new and vastly more dangerous reality, as is everyone else who fails to realize that things have changed, and that this change is very likely permanent.

The naive belief that open properties, open doors, and unprotected windows is a viable option in a violent world is an outdated idea that has only survived for a very brief period in history, and primarily in the U.S. and Canada.

Let us hope for your sake that Manzanillo continues to be the one and only truly safe haven on the entire planet. Very funny.

Funny you mention Europe. In the last two years, we have visited Rome, Venice, Berlin, and Paris. We spent an average of ten days in each city, walking all over the place every day. Tourists, of course, but not on tour buses. We saw no bars on windows. No roll-down steel window covers. There are, of course, steel roll-down doors on businesses to keep the midnight bandits on the sidewalk where they belong.

Toronto is a big city with a long reputation of violence. Chapala is a small town that is supposed to be retirement paradise.

"Let us hope for your sake that Manzanillo continues to be the one and only truly safe haven on the entire planet." Why can't anyone respond without a snide remark?

jackak10 wrote:Toronto is a big city with a long reputation of violence.

Really? I would say that Toronto has long enjoyed the reputation of being a very safe city for its size.

Axixic wrote:Actually E-raq, in Canada, the national crime rate has been falling steadily for the past 20 years and is now at its lowest level since 1973.

The Crime Severity Index reached its lowest point (82.7) since 1998 (first year for which Index data are available) The decline in crime severity was seen virtually across the country. The only exceptions were increases in Newfoundland and Labrador, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

Of course that's overall crime but decreases were also reported for many violent offences - homicide, attempted murder, serious assaults and robbery. Although some offences did show an increase, including sexual assault, use/discharge of a firearm, criminal harassment, child pornography and drug offences.

The general perception is that violent crime is increasing but it isn't borne out in the statistics.

Well over the course of three telephone calls to three separate people, the general perception was that very recently crime has been increasing pretty rapidly. Now, a year ago here, the perception was that crime was decreasing at best, or not increasing very much, at worst. Is there a chance that the statistics have not kept up with recent events?
The people I spoke to lived in Metropolitan Toronto, High Park and a couple of blocks east of there. One of them had lived in the same area for well over 30 years.
So far there has been, to my knowledge no increase in perceived crime in the suburbs such as Oakville or Burlington.

Axixic wrote:

jackak10 wrote:Toronto is a big city with a long reputation of violence.

Really? I would say that Toronto has long enjoyed the reputation of being a very safe city for its size.

Sorry, I must be thinking of the other big city in Canada.

You guys are at the wrong end of the continent.
We have been discussing crimes in Tonala and the road between Chapala and Guad. Lizzy

E-raq,

Well, Mark Twain observed that there were three types of lies:
- Lies
- Damn Lies
- and Statistics.

So grains of salt are completely called for and I am sure you're right that the perception of increasing crime is definitely there and violent crime grabs much more of the headlines and news reports.

But, in a strictly statistical sense, crime in general and violent crime in particular have seen a steady decline in Canada.

Jackak 10, have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever been to Greece? How about anywhere else in Italy besides Rome and Venice? Traipsing around tourist areas which are exceptionally well patrolled, not only by the usual authorities, but also tourist police, is hardly representative. I might also add that even in these very safe areas, second and often third story windows have roll down steel window covers. I might add that this was pretty common even 50 years ago when I first started traveling to Europe with my family.
Spain, is covered with farmland. Where do the farmers live? Usually in towns, not always but usually.
My husband lived in Spain in the 1970's and he has just assured me that bars and roll down metal window protection was the norm even way back then in all Latin countries in Europe, it is the same today.

E-raq wrote:Jackak 10, have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever been to Greece? How about anywhere else in Italy besides Rome and Venice? Traipsing around tourist areas which are exceptionally well patrolled, not only by the usual authorities, but also tourist police, is hardly representative. I might also add that even in these very safe areas, second and often third story windows have roll down steel window covers. I might add that this was pretty common even 50 years ago when I first started traveling to Europe with my family.
Spain, is covered with farmland. Where do the farmers live? Usually in towns, not always but usually.
My husband lived in Spain in the 1970's and he has just assured me that bars and roll down metal window protection was the norm even way back then in all Latin countries in Europe, it is the same today.

OK, OK. Your husband was somewhere 40 years ago and he saw something. All I'm saying is I recently spent time in those cities and we did not see bars on windows, walls with broken glass on top, etc. Not as part of a tourist group, and yes, we went to touristy venues. I'm sure if we wanted to we could seek out the parts of town that are as you described. But we didn't go to be robbed, so we stayed away. Don't compare Chapala to the bad parts of other cities and then say, "See, I told you so." I thought a place like Chapala was supposed to be better than those places.

OFFTOPIC
(I really half expected him to reply:
Well, I've never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music...
Say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it;
They don't abuse it
Never gonna lose it
I can't refuse it.)

SORRY - JUST COULDN'T RESIST.

Axixic wrote:OFFTOPIC
(I really half expected him to reply:
Well, I've never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music...
Say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it;
They don't abuse it
Never gonna lose it
I can't refuse it.)

SORRY - JUST COULDN'T RESIST.

DAMMITDAMMITDAMMIT!!!
Why can't I remember things when I need them?

CheenaGringo wrote:I am headed out the door to the closest church to say a Novena to St. Jude to protect a close friend who was driving this route to/from Tonala today.

Hey CG, you would be better off to just head into your back den and light the "bong of reality"...........jajajajajaja

E-raq wrote:Jackak 10, have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever been to Greece? How about anywhere else in Italy besides Rome and Venice? ...even in these very safe areas, second and often third story windows have roll down steel window covers. I might add that this was pretty common even 50 years ago when I first started traveling to Europe with my family...

I often recall my first experience with terrorists back in the 70's in Spain when Basque Separatists bombed a few blocks away from the area we were staying. There was military presence (Franco) with machine guns on every street corner. I learned the lesson that even if a bomb went off a few blocks away, it did not affect the lives of those who did not hear it... LIFE MUST GO ON.

Or try going to a place like Jakarta. Religious terrorists... the worst kind... a hugely stratified economy... they have gangs randomly murdering people who are just hanging out at 7-11's. http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/central-jakarta-7-eleven-site-of-gang-violence-yet-again/517467

Kidnapping, cartels, all the keywords from the list of bad words... these have all been commonplace in other countries for decades. Yet Mexico continued to ride on a reputation of being a "what, not me!" country where there was so little crime it was not worth thinking about. That's called a halo effect... now I think the reverse is happening, people are waking up and going "OMG, Mexico is a country with problems just like other countries!!!!"

The US and Canada have been almost blissfully-free of terrorist attacks on their own soil, so those who have not traveled much to other countries find it a shock and think this is new and the only place it is happening. Well, here's to reality!

Merry

jackak10 wrote:

Axixic wrote:OFFTOPIC
(I really half expected him to reply:
Well, I've never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music...
Say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it;
They don't abuse it
Never gonna lose it
I can't refuse it.)

SORRY - JUST COULDN'T RESIST.

DAMMITDAMMITDAMMIT!!!
Why can't I remember things when I need them?

Three Dog Night

" In Oklahoma, not Arizona, what does it matter.... what does it matter...."

jackak10 wrote:

E-raq wrote:Jackak 10, have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever been to Greece? How about anywhere else in Italy besides Rome and Venice? Traipsing around tourist areas which are exceptionally well patrolled, not only by the usual authorities, but also tourist police, is hardly representative. I might also add that even in these very safe areas, second and often third story windows have roll down steel window covers. I might add that this was pretty common even 50 years ago when I first started traveling to Europe with my family.
Spain, is covered with farmland. Where do the farmers live? Usually in towns, not always but usually.
My husband lived in Spain in the 1970's and he has just assured me that bars and roll down metal window protection was the norm even way back then in all Latin countries in Europe, it is the same today.

OK, OK. Your husband was somewhere 40 years ago and he saw something. All I'm saying is I recently spent time in those cities and we did not see bars on windows, walls with broken glass on top, etc. Not as part of a tourist group, and yes, we went to touristy venues. I'm sure if we wanted to we could seek out the parts of town that are as you described. But we didn't go to be robbed, so we stayed away. Don't compare Chapala to the bad parts of other cities and then say, "See, I told you so." I thought a place like Chapala was supposed to be better than those places.

Really Jackak10, you thought that Chapala was better than those places? Let me assure you that when we came here in 1999, we thought that "those" places were better than here. There was quite a bit of crime here at the time. The first week we were here 2 gringos had their throats slit, rip offs were the norm (still are). Following that a couple of other gringos were shot in their home in upper Ajijic. So, we set off on a little jaunt to Spain after awhile just to check it out for ourselves. I kinda didn't think i was up to learning Greek. Italy was and always has been pretty dangerous.
Anyhow, we rented a car, and drove all over Andalusia, not searching out bad areas, just driving. Cordoba, Ronda then Granada. Then we headed down to the costa del Sol, then all the way up the east coast to Barcelona. Since I speak Spanish, we had a lot of chats with people actually living in those many towns and cities. So, let me assure you that things are not any better there, and that was quite a few years ago. Crime was rampant, people couldn't get phone lines, but hey, the roads were just fabulous. Over time things got better here, but worse there. Now Spain is almost bankrupt, the official unemployment rate is 25% and is probably higher. Now, at least temporarily, crime has gotten worse here. However the outlook for Mexico is a whole heckuva lot better than it is for Spain, or Greece, or Portugal or Italy, and things aren't generally looking a whole lot better for the rest of the eurozone either.
I'm not going to bore you with my personal impressions of Manzanillo, however it has not and never will be on our list of possible places to live. If we were to ever consider a move in this country, it would be to either San Miguel de Allende, or Queretaro. So far, we have no plans. Yes, we have travelled very extensively in Mexico as well from North to South over the years and have still to this day not found anywhere we'd rather live.

Don't forget Guanajuato on that list. Muy bonita........

CanuckBob wrote:

CheenaGringo wrote:I am headed out the door to the closest church to say a Novena to St. Jude to protect a close friend who was driving this route to/from Tonala today.

Hey CG, you would be better off to just head into your back den and light the "bong of reality"...........jajajajajaja

Somehow... considering re-ality makes me want to light the bong of un-reality instead... ... much nicer to ponder than re-a-li-ty.
Just my dos centavo, dudes...Lizzy

E-raq wrote:

jackak10 wrote:

E-raq wrote:Jackak 10, have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever been to Greece? How about anywhere else in Italy besides Rome and Venice? Traipsing around tourist areas which are exceptionally well patrolled, not only by the usual authorities, but also tourist police, is hardly representative. I might also add that even in these very safe areas, second and often third story windows have roll down steel window covers. I might add that this was pretty common even 50 years ago when I first started traveling to Europe with my family.
Spain, is covered with farmland. Where do the farmers live? Usually in towns, not always but usually.
My husband lived in Spain in the 1970's and he has just assured me that bars and roll down metal window protection was the norm even way back then in all Latin countries in Europe, it is the same today.

OK, OK. Your husband was somewhere 40 years ago and he saw something. All I'm saying is I recently spent time in those cities and we did not see bars on windows, walls with broken glass on top, etc. Not as part of a tourist group, and yes, we went to touristy venues. I'm sure if we wanted to we could seek out the parts of town that are as you described. But we didn't go to be robbed, so we stayed away. Don't compare Chapala to the bad parts of other cities and then say, "See, I told you so." I thought a place like Chapala was supposed to be better than those places.

Really Jackak10, you thought that Chapala was better than those places? Let me assure you that when we came here in 1999, we thought that "those" places were better than here.

Do you even read the posts? I never said that I thought that Chapala was better than any other place. I said that I thought it was supposed to be better.

Rude Reality:

Just because you feel safe doesn't mean you are;
Just because you feel unsafe doesn't mean you are.

And, remembering Spain under Franco: Wasn't it "fun" at those random roadblocks where young soldiers with serious ammunition were with great solemnity reviewing your passports by holding them upside down?

Splitting hairs are we Jackak10? You thoughtthat Chapala was supposed to be better.
Getting down to semantics, you stated in your very own words that the thought had occurred to you. Not that you supposed, no, you thought.

Now if you'd like to be completely precise in your communications, you might have said I had supposed that Chapala was better and then the matter of independent thought and perhaps even reasoning would have never occurred to any of us. In fact we could have cheerfully agreed that your supposition was either spot on, or somewhat flawed, or even somewhere in between.

E-raq wrote:Splitting hairs are we Jackak10? You thoughtthat Chapala was supposed to be better.
Getting down to semantics, you stated in your very own words that the thought had occurred to you. Not that you supposed, no, you thought.

Now if you'd like to be completely precise in your communications, you might have said I had supposed that Chapala was better and then the matter of independent thought and perhaps even reasoning would have never occurred to any of us. In fact we could have cheerfully agreed that your supposition was either spot on, or somewhat flawed, or even somewhere in between.

What?

jackak10 wrote:

E-raq wrote:Splitting hairs are we Jackak10? You thoughtthat Chapala was supposed to be better.
Getting down to semantics, you stated in your very own words that the thought had occurred to you. Not that you supposed, no, you thought.

Now if you'd like to be completely precise in your communications, you might have said I had supposed that Chapala was better and then the matter of independent thought and perhaps even reasoning would have never occurred to any of us. In fact we could have cheerfully agreed that your supposition was either spot on, or somewhat flawed, or even somewhere in between.

What?

Having a little difficulty following along are you? Might I suggest a nap.