Double murder robbery in La Floresta?

Damage control. This story is being reported widely in the U.S. As well as Canada. Words like "isolated incident" hope to reassure the public and avoid a damaging blow to tourism.

And has the younger brother been apprehended or not? T.V news is saying no and yesterday's edition of La Pagina Que Si Se Lee is reporting only one brother captured. If they have the other one why has he not been paraded in front of the media yet?

"Since the Jalisco officials met with the Canadian community it only makes sense that they would also meet with the US community."

Yes, it is not as though members of the foreign community are only concerned when the murder victims come from the same country they did. I have not heard one U.S. citizen say, "Well, that couple came from Canada so their being beaten and stabbed to death in their own home does not concern me."

It appears the other brother fled in the direction of safety in Colima/Michoacan.  I haven't read in ANY Mexican news that the other brother is in custody.   But who knows really where he went?  It's fairly safe to say, he won't be back here anytime soon of his own will.

Oh and I should point out that there have been no Federales in the area, only the state police, which are now called the "Fiscalia General del Estado" The police chief (ramon del arco) referred to them as the "Fiscales".

Ms.Thang wrote:Damage control. This story is being reported widely in the U.S. As well as Canada. Words like "isolated incident" hope to reassure the public and avoid a damaging blow to tourism.

No isolated incident for sure.  How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?  And, no, I'm not talking about Chicago and Kansas City.

I haven't seen anything about these murders on TV in Phoenix. Bulk of news regarding Mexico is Fast N Furious and the border agent killed trial.

sambrit10 wrote:

Seventyseven wrote:He was a small time dealer. The police are not going to discuss that. Dont complicate issues. That is not your business to ask. It has nothing to do with home invasions. How dare you call this investigation an embarrasment. There is a new person in charge now, and he is doing the right thing. Finally, there is some real action. How dare you compare drug murders with this one! Apologize to the friends of the victims.

Well, maybe the Taco Compadre shooting wasn't a good example, but my point was, I have no idea how I was to know the situation when there was no followup on it. (And not sure where you got your information...?) All I knew was, a man was shot and killed at his place of business three blocks from my home in front of his small daughter (who was also injured and obviously an innocent victim) and I never heard anything more about it. For all I knew it was a robbery or an extortion attempt gone bad.

And the embarrassment this time is not in the fact that they mobilized the police so quickly and found (hopefully) the culprits. I think that's great. I think the crime was horrendous and hope the guys never get out of prison. I just want the same attention given to crimes against Mexicans. Maybe with this new guy that will happen...? Time will tell.

the man was shot between midnight and 1 a.m. Many people sell drugs, and there are conflicts. Police are generally not interested in this. There were several similar shootings over the years, including a taxi driver in Chapala. There are many murders you dont hear about, personal disputes and drug deals. The victims and killers are people you may see every day. Similar to Chicago, or Baltimore, any inner city. Meaning that they are not taken that seriously. If a Mexican person is murdered with a home invasion as the couple was, then it is comparable. Douteful authorities would have the same massive search unless the victims were wealthy or prominent.

addtocart wrote:

Ms.Thang wrote:Damage control. This story is being reported widely in the U.S. As well as Canada. Words like "isolated incident" hope to reassure the public and avoid a damaging blow to tourism.

No isolated incident for sure.  How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?  And, no, I'm not talking about Chicago and Kansas City.

News this week, sadly, my hometown is on the list...I choose Chapala...seriously, feel safer here, at least here it's not considered strange to secure your own home:

http://business.time.com/2014/02/12/10-cities-where-violent-crime-is-soaring/

addtocart wrote:

Ms.Thang wrote:Damage control. This story is being reported widely in the U.S. As well as Canada. Words like "isolated incident" hope to reassure the public and avoid a damaging blow to tourism.

No isolated incident for sure.  How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?  And, no, I'm not talking about Chicago and Kansas City.

Each and every murder here is called an "isolated incident". This one will be forgotton as the others were. New people come down here and few look at the forum archives or LakeChaplaCrime.com. They will still let in strangers, give keys to workers.

according to adela on last nights tv. they have caught the other guy and is waiting to be transferred from colima to jalisco.

"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

Here's an article from today's Informador about security issues in Chapala and the difficulties foreigners have in dealing with the Mexican system. Our own Spencer is quoted in the article.

Spanish:
http://www.informador.com.mx/jalisco/2014/513127/6/aseguran-que-no-hay-alza-de-inseguridad-en-chapala.htm

Google translation:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com.mx&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.informador.com.mx/jalisco/2014/513127/6/aseguran-que-no-hay-alza-de-inseguridad-en-chapala.htm&usg=ALkJrhjgrc82JQAilJBDirG8A91uC0-S6Q

Agree that crime is on the rise in the U.S.A. Older folks do not move to those areas to retire.

Lady Otter Latté wrote:"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"  

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

That's impressive...I'm content where I am...I've lost my vagabond spirit.

Smartalex wrote:Here's an article from today's Informador about security issues in Chapala and the difficulties foreigners have in dealing with the Mexican system. Our own Spencer is quoted in the article.

Spanish:
http://www.informador.com.mx/jalisco/2014/513127/6/aseguran-que-no-hay-alza-de-inseguridad-en-chapala.htm

Google translation:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com.mx&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.informador.com.mx/jalisco/2014/513127/6/aseguran-que-no-hay-alza-de-inseguridad-en-chapala.htm&usg=ALkJrhjgrc82JQAilJBDirG8A91uC0-S6Q

The article may be difficult for some to translate   it was for me.  Check here to read what Spencer said he said:)  http://lakechapalacrime.com/

Seventyseven wrote: The man was shot between midnight and 1 a.m. Many people sell drugs, and there are conflicts. Police are generally not interested in this. There were several similar shootings over the years, including a taxi driver in Chapala. There are many murders you dont hear about, personal disputes and drug deals. The victims and killers are people you may see every day. Similar to Chicago, or Baltimore, any inner city. Meaning that they are not taken that seriously. If a Mexican person is murdered with a home invasion as the couple was, then it is comparable. Douteful authorities would have the same massive search unless the victims were wealthy or prominent.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Did the police do any investigation into this killing? Business owners do get killed for not coughing up extortion money, and these kinds of killings would probably tend to take place after midnight. So is there any kind of investigation, or do police just shrug and say, "This guy wasn't wealthy or prominent, it was probably just a drug deal gone bad." I'm not saying it WASN'T a drug deal, I'm just asking if that was an assumption or if there was something to bear it out.

Although now having read Spencer's interview in the article cited above, I can see that unless someone was willing to make a complaint, probably nothing would be done, and even if they DID make a complaint, probably nothing would be done. I guess it's not like in the US where the state automatically pursues and prosecutes homicides. But I find that lack of concern for the everyday person appalling.

Chapalagringa wrote:

Lady Otter Latté wrote:"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"  

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

That's impressive...I'm content where I am...I've lost my vagabond spirit.    

Wow, some of these small towns have insane murder rates. 25 a year in a town with less than 50,000 people??

I checked my own "home town" of Sacramento and found a rate of about 12 per 100,000 per year. Researching further, I did find that some of them were home invasions that resulted in homicide. I never felt particularly threatened there, although I did live in a relatively low-crime area.

How did you find out how many have been killed in this area? Since the number are never disclosed - :)


So you are comparing apples to cactus?

Here is a neat map and stats of the population of the municipality of Chapala and all the cities inside it.

http://www.citypopulation.de/php/mexico-jalisco.php?adm2id=14030

sambrit10 wrote:

Chapalagringa wrote:

Lady Otter Latté wrote:"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"  

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

That's impressive...I'm content where I am...I've lost my vagabond spirit.    

Wow, some of these small towns have insane murder rates. 25 a year in a town with less than 50,000 people??

I checked my own "home town" of Sacramento and found a rate of about 12 per 100,000 per year. Researching further, I did find that some of them were home invasions that resulted in homicide. I never felt particularly threatened there, although I did live in a relatively low-crime area.

Sacramento is fairly large city (With an estimated 2011 population of 477,892, it is the sixth-largest city in California according to Wikipedia), I don't think it compares.  Of course a big city will have a larger "per 100,000" ratio than a city with barely 50,000 including Ajijic, Chapala and points in between.  And a "low crime area" will be easier to find.  And we are only talking about the murders we know about.

You could probably find that Detroit or Baltimore has a higher murder rate, but do you seriously want to compare them to this little village?

addtocart wrote:

sambrit10 wrote:

Chapalagringa wrote:

Lady Otter Latté wrote:"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"  

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

That's impressive...I'm content where I am...I've lost my vagabond spirit.    

Wow, some of these small towns have insane murder rates. 25 a year in a town with less than 50,000 people??

I checked my own "home town" of Sacramento and found a rate of about 12 per 100,000 per year. Researching further, I did find that some of them were home invasions that resulted in homicide. I never felt particularly threatened there, although I did live in a relatively low-crime area.

Sacramento is fairly large city (With an estimated 2011 population of 477,892, it is the sixth-largest city in California according to Wikipedia), I don't think it compares.  Of course a big city will have a larger "per 100,000" ratio than a city with barely 50,000 including Ajijic, Chapala and points in between.  And a "low crime area" will be easier to find.  And we are only talking about the murders we know about.

You could probably find that Detroit or Baltimore has a higher murder rate, but do you seriously want to compare them to this little village?

Did you look at the referenced wikipedia article? It listed towns with populations of less than 50,000 in the US and some had murder rates as high as 25 per year.

The only reason I mentioned Sacramento was to remark that despite a fairly high crime rate I never felt particularly unsafe there. And I don't feel unsafe here, although of course I take normal and reasonable precautions to avoid problems.

INEGI is the Mexican bureau of statistics. According to their website, the Ministerio Publico reported 11 homicides in the municipality of Chapala during 2010. The population of the municipality is reported as 49,000.

sambrit10 wrote:

addtocart wrote:

sambrit10 wrote:

Chapalagringa wrote:

Lady Otter Latté wrote:"How many small towns (45,000 Ajijic and Chapala combined, according to Mr. Google) in the US or Canada can list this many murders in just a couple of years?"  

I was going to list the cities with higher murder rates (this is for one year) but when I got up to a dozen, I gave up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(40,000%E2%80%9360,000)

That's impressive...I'm content where I am...I've lost my vagabond spirit.    

Wow, some of these small towns have insane murder rates. 25 a year in a town with less than 50,000 people??

I checked my own "home town" of Sacramento and found a rate of about 12 per 100,000 per year. Researching further, I did find that some of them were home invasions that resulted in homicide. I never felt particularly threatened there, although I did live in a relatively low-crime area.

Sacramento is fairly large city (With an estimated 2011 population of 477,892, it is the sixth-largest city in California according to Wikipedia), I don't think it compares.  Of course a big city will have a larger "per 100,000" ratio than a city with barely 50,000 including Ajijic, Chapala and points in between.  And a "low crime area" will be easier to find.  And we are only talking about the murders we know about.

You could probably find that Detroit or Baltimore has a higher murder rate, but do you seriously want to compare them to this little village?

Did you look at the referenced wikipedia article? It listed towns with populations of less than 50,000 in the US and some had murder rates as high as 25 per year.

The only reason I mentioned Sacramento was to remark that despite a fairly high crime rate I never felt particularly unsafe there. And I don't feel unsafe here, although of course I take normal and reasonable precautions to avoid problems.

I did look at the article.  And while I do not know the entire country, I know that some of those towns have been swallowed up by the surrounding big cities.  Commerce City, Colorado is the one I am most familiar with.  It is a very low-income area of the "Greater Denver Metro Area".  Not a small town.

I lived for ten years in a small town in Arkansas, about 15,000 population.  During that time there was one murder.  A husband shot by his wife.  She says she didn't do it, but we all knew.  There was never an armed robbery, but the occasional break-in and from time to time just to spice things up, an exploding meth lab.

But in all my life up until now, I never knew anyone who lived "just down the street" from a double murder.  Lucky, I guess.

sambrit10 wrote:

Seventyseven wrote: The man was shot between midnight and 1 a.m. Many people sell drugs, and there are conflicts. Police are generally not interested in this. There were several similar shootings over the years, including a taxi driver in Chapala. There are many murders you dont hear about, personal disputes and drug deals. The victims and killers are people you may see every day. Similar to Chicago, or Baltimore, any inner city. Meaning that they are not taken that seriously. If a Mexican person is murdered with a home invasion as the couple was, then it is comparable. Douteful authorities would have the same massive search unless the victims were wealthy or prominent.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Did the police do any investigation into this killing? Business owners do get killed for not coughing up extortion money, and these kinds of killings would probably tend to take place after midnight. So is there any kind of investigation, or do police just shrug and say, "This guy wasn't wealthy or prominent, it was probably just a drug deal gone bad." I'm not saying it WASN'T a drug deal, I'm just asking if that was an assumption or if there was something to bear it out.

Although now having read Spencer's interview in the article cited above, I can see that unless someone was willing to make a complaint, probably nothing would be done, and even if they DID make a complaint, probably nothing would be done. I guess it's not like in the US where the state automatically pursues and prosecutes homicides. But I find that lack of concern for the everyday person appalling.

                          The information came from my landlord. He and his family have been here for generations. Many working class Mexicans sell drugs on the side. I doute the police in Mexico or the U.S. would put much energy into these kinds of crimes. They are similar to the inner city street crimes (in which the police are overwhelmed every day). Sorry to say, if these two Floresta victims were Mexican, they would be ignored as well. If they had connections, then it would be addressed. The every day person in Mexico is ignored, whether they sell tacos or are in Floresta. The Floresta murders are like the story of "In Cold Blood". That was major in the U.S. and those are the kinds of crimes that require investigation.

Several people have requested a human translation of this Informador article:

GUADALAJARA, JALISCO (15/FEB/2014).- The murder of the Canadian couple in the La Floresta subdivision in Ajijic, Chapala does not mean there is heightened insecurity in the area since it was an exceptional case, stated Municipal Police Chief Ramón del Arco Pérez. In fact, the crime rate is much less than in other municipalities: “This is the second high-impact crime we have had since the beginning of this administration”.

The chief pointed out that while there are residential thefts these are done by people who await an opportunity and who, above all, are not local residents but for the most part come from municipalities in the Guadalajara Metropolitan Area for the purpose of stealing. This is evidenced by the arrests, for example of two gangs of car thieves from Tlajomulco who only came on market days.

Other thieves have come to surreptitiously steal whatever they can fit in their backpacks when residents are out shopping or on errands, thinking that foreigners are wealthy. These come from neighborhoods in southern Guadalajara and along its boundary with Tlaquepaque: “They think that since they are foreigners they are all have money, but the truth is that they are retired people who come for the climate. Their pensions allow them to live reasonably well here, something they could not do in the United States. They live better here than in the United States from their pensions but they are not rich”.

Patrol cars are lacking

The police department is made up of 110 people, which includes all administrative personnel and 19 officers that will only be here for a short time as they will be sent in a few months to the "Fuerza Única" [elite state force], with twelve patrol cars (of which usually one or two is in the shop each day) and nine motorcycles. He stated that with these resources he can watch over the populated areas of the municipality well enough to be at the scene of a report within a maximum of five minutes, but he admitted the department needs at least four more pickups and another six motorcycles to speed up the response.

Most attention would paid to the San Miguel neighborhood: “Drugs are consumed there and drugs are sold as is the case everywhere, and I am placing my hopes on prevention”. He said that the state government has offered to provide at least two units in which the municipality must invest as at the moment there are no funds.

• The foreign population may dwindle

The murder of the foreign couple in Chapala and the international publicity arising from the fact that one of the victims was the Canadian writer Nina Discombe may cause a slackening in the migration of foreigners to the Chapala area, opined Jorge Durand, anthropological researcher at the University of Guadalajara: “This affects the plans of migrants who come to Mexico seeking peace and quiet. They are older people and the last thing they expected is to be assaulted and killed”.

But it is not just this segment--U. S. citizens, Canadians and other foreigners who come to Chapala and Ajijic and who are generally retirees who want to spend time in a tranquil and relaxing place--that would be affected, as the likelihood cannot be dismissed that current residents will decide to abandon their domiciles and return to their native countries: “It is obvious that the number of people arriving is going to drop off, this is going to affect house sales. Prices are going to go down because a theft is not the same as a crime of this magnitude”.

The researcher pointed out that one hindrance is the lack of professionalism of the Municipal Police, which can cause acts of this sort to be repeated. For this reason attention should be paid to training the force but he does not believe this is being done.

Durand clarified that this incident should not have repercussions upon tourism in the rest of the state since the sector that was directly affected was foreigners and residents of Chapala.

• Justice in two languages

Resident foreigners see shortcomings in the Public Ministry

Carolina Jean Wood, a foreign resident of Chapala, went to the Municipal Police headquarters to ask for help as a thief was persistently stealing from her in her residence, to the extent that she could no longer sleep. An interpreter accompanied her. They explained to the officers that the woman changed residences a couple of times and that the subject still found the way to get into the place and resumed stealing.

The officers understood little of what the woman said. They told the interpreter that when that happened to call the headquarters, but when she did the officer on duty did not understand her, besides which there was little chance to speak over the telephone with a thief in the residence. That was when the officers suggested that she place a complaint. She responded that she had already done so but that the paperwork at the Public Ministry was backlogged and the subject had not been apprehended, to the anguish and desperation of the woman.

This illustrates one of the grievances of the residents of Chapala and its Ajijic district: the excessive paperwork and bureaucracy that produce few results with respect to the arrest of criminals after the filing of complaints, especially by foreigners who cannot understand the Mexican justice system.

Spencer McMullen, of the Chapala Law firm, warned that legal realities in Mexico and what he has seen in Chapala make impunity for criminals likely: “Many foreigners do not understand the system here in Mexico. Here the police exist to prevent crime and if the crime has already occurred you must file a complaint with the 'Procu' and bring an interpreter with you. Many foreigners and Mexicans as well are discouraged knowing that a complaint languishes for months and months after one has spent hours at the 'Procu' and been asked for 'facturas' [invoices], something that does not exist in the United States or Canada. Many people get fed up with the convolutions in following their case". And of the criminals who are apprehended, it is estimated that 98% go free and only the remained are sentenced to custody.

Clemente Serratos Galindo, manager of the Neighborhood Residents' Association in the La Floresta subdivision, agreed with the views expressed by McMullen. He said he has attended to numerous residents who complain about the attention authorities devote to their demands: “The government should pay more attention to following through on complaints, to making the complaint process simpler”. As to patrols and civic safety, he believed that the response is satisfactory since the units arrive within a few minutes.

Serratos admitted that after the deaths of Linda Marian Discombe and her husband Edward J. Kular concerned foreign residents called the offices but there were fewer than five calls. After the quick arrest of the suspects he has not had to attend to any more people and he stated that they are remaining calm and understand that this was an isolated incident as nothing like it had ever happened before during the existence of the subdivision.

Meanwhile, Jean Wood was personally attended to by the Chapala Police Chief, who assured her that he will resolve the problem of the insistent thief who was the subject of the complaint.