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Post by Smartalex on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:46 pm

Thought I'd update the Templarios thread. The government now admits that it does not know if Nazario "El Chayo" Moreno is dead or alive. Moreno was the founder of La Familia Michoacana, the predecessor cartel to the Templarios.

Spanish:
http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2014/513939/6/gobierno-admite-que-no-sabe-si-el-chayo-esta-muerto.htm

Google translation:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com.mx&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2014/513939/6/gobierno-admite-que-no-sabe-si-el-chayo-esta-muerto.htm&usg=ALkJrhiXi4oBp4_m_XqrO3JRE-LN3mcAyA

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Post by Smartalex on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:33 am

More on El Chayo, the formerly dead founder of La Familia Michoacana and spiritual inspiration of the Templarios movement. According to Boderland Beat, a joint operation of federal troops and autodefensas are closing in on his mountain hideout. According to the story, the feds have brought in tanks, artillery and sophisticated satellite equipment.

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/
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Post by lobita on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:22 am

Thank you for the concise history lesson!
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Post by Ms.Thang on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:27 am

How is this ever going to end for Michoacan? What are all those Narcos going to do if they get run opt of there?

What is the airplane that flies back and forth over the lake and over all day long for the last few weeks? It's a white 2-4 seater with black numbers on the bottom of it? Anyone know what the deal on that is?

And who has the plaza of Chapala now? The CJNG ? Are they still allies with the Templarios?

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Post by Trailrunner on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:42 am

Good questions, Ms T, I'm afraid they shall remain to be seen. Hopefully the cockroaches will flee toward the Guerrero direction rather than to Jalisco.

I've always thought, and heard, that airplane was a privately owned plane out of the Chapala airport who takes people sightseeing. Pero, quien sabe?

Since there has not been a bloodbath here for awhile and Mardi Gras has come and almost gone without a major incident (that I know of) I assume the Chapala plaza is fairly stable, so maybe still CJNG?
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Post by brigitte on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:27 am

Maybe they are taking pictures of all properties to revise the taxes next year....

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Post by slainte39 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:01 am

The upper echelon capos and jefes will be arrested or killed if found. The lower echelon affiliates are being shown the error of their ways by the autodefensas and left in the community...at least that's the way it's happening in several small towns in Michoacan that I personally know about.
They know who is who.

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Post by Trailrunner on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:28 am

I really like this FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/MichoacanosUnidosPorLaPaz?ref=stream

Don't know if you can view them elsewhere, but they are called:
Michoacanos Unidos Por la Paz y La Libertad USA

You can track the Feds and the Autodefensas as they currently move into the mountains after the jefes.
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:59 am

Ms.Thang wrote:

And who has the plaza of Chapala now? The CJNG ? Are they still allies with the Templarios?

I believe the Chapala plaza is in the hands of the Milenios, who are rivals to the CJNG. The CJNG has been supporting the autodefensa movement in Michoacan in opposition to the Templarios.
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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:35 am

Smartalex wrote:
Ms.Thang wrote:

And who has the plaza of Chapala now? The CJNG ? Are they still allies with the Templarios?

I believe the Chapala plaza is in the hands of the Milenios, who are rivals to the CJNG. The CJNG has been supporting the autodefensa movement in Michoacan in opposition to the Templarios.
you have a pipeline to this sort of info? or are you just going by media spin doctoring?-SNORK!
you will note that a lot of autodefensas are still carrying shotguns and 22's. the heavy stough they have has been taken from defeated templaros. if a narco outfit has been sponsoring them,would not all of them be carrying heavy equipment? have another Beer 
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:32 pm

Don't be silly, Pedro. You've been spun and duped by Borderland Beat...haven't you? You think the photo of this Mireles character, holding a shotgun and smoking his pipe, is something other than a posed p.r. shot...don't you? The government is currently trying to register an estimated 16,000 fully automatic weapons in the hands of the autodefensas. Some of the autodefensas units are cooperating with the government, while Mireles continues to resist registration. Why does he resist? Because he knows the government will track the weapons and find out where they really came from and who really paid for them.
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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:14 pm

Smartalex wrote:Don't be silly, Pedro. You've been spun and duped by Borderland Beat...haven't you? You think the photo of this Mireles character, holding a shotgun and smoking his pipe, is something other than a posed p.r. shot...don't you? The government is currently trying to register an estimated 16,000 fully automatic weapons in the hands of the autodefensas. Some of the autodefensas units are cooperating with the government, while Mireles continues to resist registration. Why does he resist? Because he knows the government will track the weapons and find out where they really came from and who really paid for them.
sorry pal. i've been following this michoacan thing from the very beginning in more than just borderland beat. have seen many pics and stories in all media including some vids showing many auto defenses with limited firepower. everything i've seen points to them taking the guns and ammo left by running and killed templaros ,mainly after firefights. of course any gummint would try to discredit vigilantes like these anywhere in the world because they pose a threat to gummint. so hence the gummint sponsored spin doctoring. carry on believing what i consider hokum. gummint and good order-hmmmm!
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:42 pm

If you were following this story, and could actually read Spanish, you would know that how the autodefensas came to be so well armed is a major issue...and a topic of frequent discussion in the Mexican news media. Here's a little insight for you...complete with pictures for the illiterate.

http://aristeguinoticias.com/1501/mexico/cuanto-cuestan-las-armas-de-las-autodefensas-en-michoacan/
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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:30 pm

Smartalex wrote:If you were following this story, and could actually read Spanish, you would know that how the autodefensas came to be so well armed is a major issue...and a topic of frequent discussion in the Mexican news media. Here's a little insight for you...complete with pictures for the illiterate.

http://aristeguinoticias.com/1501/mexico/cuanto-cuestan-las-armas-de-las-autodefensas-en-michoacan/

perhaps you should question your own insight. all the article states is the value of some of these weapons and only some pics of auto defense carrying them[note also ordinary shotguns and hunting rifles]. it also states, as i have already suggested, that they were taken from the templarios. i put it to you,that you know diddley and are cowed by spin doctoring. or you claim to be a retired journalist-was your last post with the excited states gummint,creating "news"?-SNORK!
by the way,it has only begun to be a topic of discussion quite recently as the fed gummint has finally decided to enter the fray in michoacan. think about why the "sudden" negative media on the auto defenses, pay attention and go back a bit too fer some edification.
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:56 pm

No, Pedro...that's not what the story says. The story says that some members of the autodefensas make the claim that the weapons were captured from the Templarios. Evidently you missed the Carmen Aristegui interview with AUS leader Hipolito Mora. When pressed for an answer on where the automatic weapons came from, Mora admitted that they were purchased with funds from "wealthy farmers from Michoacan who are currently living in California for their security."
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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:22 pm

Smartalex wrote:No, Pedro...that's not what the story says. The story says that some members of the autodefensas make the claim that the weapons were captured from the Templarios. Evidently you missed the Carmen Aristegui interview with AUS leader Hipolito Mora. When pressed for an answer on where the automatic weapons came from, Mora admitted that they were purchased with funds from "wealthy farmers from Michoacan who are currently living in California for their security."
that's an old "new" story,in any event. are you suggesting those are something other than wealthy farmers? i don't think he said "all' the auto weapons were made available that way. why,with your apparent lack of knowledge in this matter, are you insisting that the auto defenses are sponsored by another cartel? go read a good fictional novel as facts seem to escape you and the real goings on in michoacan and guerrero seem to be too complex for you.
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Post by Smartalex on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:40 pm

I don't know what old news story you think you are referring to. I'm referring the three-week-old interview with Mora by Carmen Aristegui..the well-known interview in which Mora admitted that Juan Jose Farias is a founder of the AUS movement and a "special person" within its hierarchy. Farias, as discussed in another thread, is a well-known career criminal with close ties to CJNG capo "El Mencho."

I'd be willing to discuss these "wealthy farmers from Michoacan currently living in California for their securty" but then I might slip and tell you the truth...and I already know that you can't handle the truth.

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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:59 pm

i can handle it quite nicely but you seem to have trouble with spin versus truth. but carry on with your single track railroad. too bad senor dexterosity has been turfed from here. i'm sure if he were here,enlightenment would be forthcoming. so go ahead and slip your alleged intimate knowledge-SNORK!
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Post by slainte39 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:05 pm

You guys are making some valid points on both sides in this debate....I just don't think it is as black and white as either one is presenting it. A lot of nuanced factors in every aspect (alliances, local areas, who trusts who, who supplied the weapons, etc., etc.) of this struggle/confrontation/whatever you want to call it. They may have the solidarity and cohesion of the various groups that defeated Khadafi in Libya.    Rolling Eyes (where now they wish they had a strong central government presense)

The whole affair reminds me of Frank Ryan, the Irish communist IRA chief who fought against Franco in Spain, but wound up dying in Nazi Germany, cavorting with the fascists.

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Post by Pedro on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:12 pm

slainte39 wrote:You guys are making some valid points on both sides in this debate....I just don't think it is as black and white as either one is presenting it. A lot of nuanced factors in every aspect (alliances, local areas, who trusts who, who supplied the weapons, etc., etc.) of this struggle/confrontation/whatever you want to call it. They may have the solidarity and cohesion of the various groups that defeated Khadafi in Libya.    Rolling Eyes (where now they wish they had a strong central government presense)

The whole affair reminds me of Frank Ryan, the Irish communist IRA chief who fought against Franco in Spain, but wound up dying in Nazi Germany, cavorting with the fascists.
i am not saying that it's black and white. i am not on one track even if i don't chose to railroad. one can surmise certain things that have and are occurring if one has followed the goings on for some time,which i have and not just from sources with one angle of the dangle.
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Post by CheenaGringo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:03 am

From the Yahoo Michoacan message board comes an interesting first hand report written by a Gringo resident of Patzcuaro. He took it upon himself to invite the head of the AD forces in Patzcuaro to his home for dinner and a discussion about exactly what is going on:

">I am writing to hopefully shed some light on a rather sticky subject. As most of you know the Auto Defensas (AD) are now in Pátzcuaro and some surrounding communities. Feeling uninformed and not being one to rely on gossip or media I invited the head of the Pátzcuaro Group to my home and for dinner. I wanted all the information I could get from the horse's mouth. Before he came I reflected that I was just going to trust my gut instinct and trust my feeling about the whole operation once he had left.
>>
>>
>>He accepted the invitation gladly and arrived with a bodyguard, both were armed with cuerno de chivo automatic rifles. They parked the well marked pickup smack dab in front of my house. I'm out of the vigilante closet now! He was a young, 30'ish, man, very soft yet well spoken. We talked very amicably for about two hours. He has been with the organization for the year that they have operated and has not received any pay. They receive monies from the organization for food, gas, etc. However, they need our help, all Patzcuarenses and anyone else that wishes to help. Presently they are sleeping on the ground, eating take out food, and bathing only due to the kindness of one person in Vista Bella Colonia.
>>
>>
>>I know that everyone is suspicious of their motives and who the AD are. In our conversation I have found out that the core group is made up basically of people, men and women, who are absolutely fed up. They have suffered years of traumatazation and deprevation. That's good enough for me. I was threatened by the bad guys myself last week and observing my own reaction to such a petty incident I simply can't imagine the horrors that they and many others have suffered.
>>
>>
>>There plan is to 'clean up' first, which is what they are doing now. They have to start from the bottom and go up. That is start with the little guys and get knowledge which grows the network: networking. They then will hold a town meeting to help inform the community further. I plan to have a meeting where he will address the Xpat community. "

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Post by Trailrunner on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:17 am

Thanks for posting this, CG!!!
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Post by Mad_Max on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:20 am

ditto
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Post by Pedro on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:05 am

mercy buckets!
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Post by Smartalex on Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:42 am

And then there's the strange case of Padre Goyo.... The padre has accused Apatzingan mayor Uriel Chavez of mass murder and demanded he be removed from office. For good measure, the padre referred to Chavez as an "hijo del Chayo," as in "hijo de puta." Chavez, who is indeed related to El Chayo, shot back back at the padre, calling him a pedophile and drug trafficker. The padre claims his life has been threatened by Chavez. But instead of responding to a court order to make his claims official, the padre has decided to leave the country for a vacation in France. Personally, I think these people have watched way too many telenovelas.
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Post by slainte39 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:57 pm

It is confusing down there...that's why nobody trusts anybody.  Friendships, alliances, and collaboration can be a fleeting thing....also conviction of philosophies.

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