WTF...Music Concert till 3 AM...come on!

In my opinion, it is just a question of jealousy.
I wish I could still party all night long, but even though I can't, I am still glad that others can.
I love living here, and if others don't like fiestas, they know what they can do.    

We partied at the Plaza last night until the fireworks show was done and then got up this morning at 5:30am to go watch the 6:00am proceedings at the church. We plan on catching the grand finale tonight. Hope to see you all there. Viva Mexico!!!!

The locals do not play the music to annoy gringos. This fiesta would continue loudly into the night if there were not a single gringo in the village. How much should the gringos be accommodated for their inability to tolerate late, loud celebrations? Sure, not all the locals enjoy the practice either, but they have been raised to be tolerant of exuberant celebration. Personally, I would love my Mexican neighbors to have a little more empathy (extending also to chickens and barking dogs), but as a foreigner here, it is my job to learn their view of community and not try to limit it by imposing my own foreign preferences.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? You're implying that there is a complete disconnect between what Mexicans in government feel, and what everyone else feels on matters like these? Okay, then, I guess that means that the new drunk-driving laws, for example, are merely an attempt to put the squeeze on drivers who only want to have some fun, right? Because the drivers sure don't respect their government... needless deaths be damned.

What? I thought the discussion was about loud celebrating. Now we are on to needless deaths?

Late, loud parties are a fact of life in Mexico. They don't do it every day so if it happens once or twice a year who friggin cares. Like someone else pointed out, if you want peace and quiet all the time move into the country. The village(s) life is not for everyone.

brigitte wrote:chillin

Last time I was in DF a bunch of Hare Krishna wer banging on their drums and nothing happened to them, the people on the street (I Madero) were just listening and watching. Mexicans are way more tolerant of noice than other people.
This morning we are at the MP reporting a crime and the tv was blasting to the point it was difficult to hear the questions..noise is the preferred background.

Fair enough, my point was more about heirarchy, not about noise. There has been many incidents against evangelical groups who are disrupting the system. Here is a recent incident in Oaxaca http://dynamic.csw.org.uk/article.asp?t=press&id=1604 And a note is added:

"Conflict between traditionalist and/or syncretistic Catholics and non-Catholics is common in the states of Chiapas, Oaxaca, Guerrero, Hidalgo and Puebla where there are large indigenous populations. According to Mexican legal experts, ambiguity as to the relationship between the rights laid out in the Mexican Constitution and the Law of Uses and Customs, which gives indigenous communities a degree of autonomy to exercise traditional law, have allowed local authorities to violate the rights of members of the local communities with impunity. In addition, the Mexican government’s aversion to involving itself in religious issues has allowed such situations to escalate."

the beauty of eviljellycoals invading mexico. in chiapas they arrive from europe by the planeload and in the name of their religion have pitted family against family to the point of killing in some cases.
right here is a jump off point to other parts for excited states eviljellycoals. the ones that are here don't want the new ones on their lucrative turf-jaja! also check out who runs some of these kids shelters here with their early morning indoctrination classes. i was shocked and so was gringal when she researched them.

I know quite a bit about problems in indigenous communities as I have been asked many times to be the arbitrator in family conflicts between traditional catholics and evangelists and it is a problem way deeper than just being intolerant. The evangelists are defacto rejecting the system that exists and threatening the traditional system in indigenous villages so there is way more to the problem than being intolerant.
I am very close to an extended family which is split in half by the problems and even withing the family tere are major conflicts that threaten to break up the way the family has survived so far.
The evangelists reject any traditional fiesta that is connected to the old Maya religion or the catholics, they do not tolerate drinking, dancing or non religious music which goes directly against the catholic traditinal ways of living. Catholics do not accept people living in the village who do not participate in the community life as they have known it for several generations.
In some villages that are majority catholics, the church is linked to every facets of life and work, the evangelists refuse to do community work because it is linked to the church , therefore refuse to take part in any of the traditional festivities and get kicked out of the village, losing their land and houses and joining the refugies numbers around San Cristobal and other part of the country. They also form new communities that enfrange on the land of other communities and conflicts erupt everywhere.
The traditional way to resolve problems is to have a meeting and have everyone agree to a solution. Usally an elder runs the meeting and the people give him or her a lot of power in resolving the isues. When the problem arise from a religion, people have a very difficult time a referee that is not biais and therefore the problem becomes very difficult to solve. The government is distrusted and has no authority in these conflicts and if involved usually aggravates the situation.
Both groups are fighting for survival and their rights to live the way they chose, intolerance is only a small part of the issue in those cases.

Some groups are better at resolving their issues than others: in a Oaxaca village people started getting very mad at gays for not participating in the cargos.
Young men become eligible to cargos (Community work that cost the elected person a lot of work and money but also gives him and his family immense status in the community) . In the old days gays would take a wife do their cargo and lead a double life. Nowadays young gay men do not get married as a rule therefore do not particiapte in the communal life . This started creating a lot of problems in that particular village but the elders got together and decided that after 30 any man was eligible to do community work. Many unmarried men are not chosen as the spouse is an integral part of the charge but in cargos where wifes are not involved or necesary the unmarried men now can participate. This particular village has resolved a lot of problems by getting together and coming up with solutions ,some other villages are not as smart and refuse to change at the expense of peace. Every village is different even within a few kms from each other so indigenous like mestizos come in a whole lot of different shades..I is impossible to say this is the indigenous way versus the rest of the country.

The Mexican government cannot involve itself in religious issues or any other issue in indigenous villages as they can be sure that it would be the best way to unify the villages against them. There are major conflicts within and between communities but if the government appears to favor one or the other the whole place blows up.
It is very obvious in places like San Cristobal that the government is walking on eggshells with the indigenous right now and every time they tries to get their way the place errupted hence "the aversion to involving itself in religious issues" and many other issues.


WHen speaking of violations of rights it is easy to take the leftist side... and be pro this against the established group.

In one of the community in Chiapas the elders told everyone to vote for PRI in the last election. A group of people did not want to vote for PRI so they did not vote. They were epulsed from their land and houses because they did not vote. One of the time I was there that group was blocking roads and marching to DF to demand justice from the government..not sure how it ended..

It is all darn complicated and it is almost impossible to get to the bottom of many problems, add ignorence, superstition and violence to the mix and you have a real mess.

I can understand the different points of view about "noise/music/late at night, etc."
What I don't understand is going on the TOB disparaging the "4 or 5 bad eggs" here on this board or the board in general.
Fight your battles on the same battlefield.

HelperGuy wrote:What the hell does that have to do with anything? You're implying that there is a complete disconnect between what Mexicans in government feel, and what everyone else feels on matters like these? Okay, then, I guess that means that the new drunk-driving laws, for example, are merely an attempt to put the squeeze on drivers who only want to have some fun, right? Because the drivers sure don't respect their government... needless deaths be damned.

My apologies.  I didn't realize you were a spokesman for everyone else.  Of course there is a disconnect between government and local communities.  It is recognized and handled by local community standards.  This applies even in the US.  The question is; is there a local Mexican community standard for this type of noisy event?  The answer I got from my Mexican neighbors (and we live four blocks from plaza) is 'yes'.  It covers traditional celebratory events, but would not cover commercial exploitation by non-locals.  That is why there were so many angry Mexicans following the rave at Tecoluca.  Yes, my neighbors found it noisy, but they weren't complaining and looked at me funny when I asked if they would like the music stopped at midnight.  It's a festival.  It's their festival.  The noise is part of it.

And, yes, they were in favor of the drunk driving laws because they don't want their kids killed on the street by inebriated idiots behind a wheel.  I don't think they felt that their family was in mortal danger from a week's noisy celebration.

Thanks for explaining Brigitte. Not voting would be a serious matter in a poor community - politicians are giving a fund which buys all sorts of goodies and freebies, often building materials. So when a community leader delivers the vote (they have to prove with a sort of voters receipt) the community often gets items which be used for the common good.

As far as noise, after spending one and half years living on Los Muertos beach in Puerto Vallarta, it is has been bliss discovering the quiet of Chapala Haciendas. Mexicans do not have a monopoly on noise - spend any time with the drunken tourist community you will see a lot more noise and questionable behavior than the average Mexican family.

Geezuz, TrueBrit, where do you come up with these non-sequiters?

TrueBrit wrote: Of course there is a disconnect between government and local communities.  It is recognized and handled by local community standards.  This applies even in the US.

This is not true. This a getting a little off topic, but people should know these things, especially if they are considering to live here permanently. The political parties here organize right down to jefes at the individual neighborhood (barrio) level. Again the heirarchy thing. This is how the PRI party was able to stay in power for an uninterrupted 72 years. In the U.S.A. this would be called influence peddling and pork barrel politics, but that it is the way in Mexico, and it is very unlikely to change any time soon. It's not what you know, it's who you know. This is also one of the reasons you should learn Spanish -proper, formal Spanish - not the beach slang'in twang.

Chillin
unfortunately politicians are crooked and I observed in one of the village aid from the government being delivered. like 3 bags of fertilizer for each farmer. The farmers get one bag and the party representatives in the village get the rest which they resale for a profit. When I asked why this is not brought up at the general meeting I was told that the persons who would complain would be killed. The system is rotten to the chore no doubt about it.

A timely post on McClatchy blog. The Peruvian novelist who in the 1990's called PRI Mexico the"perfect dictatorship"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/29/210133/the-pri-and-its-most-notable-critic.html

CHILLIN wrote:

TrueBrit wrote: Of course there is a disconnect between government and local communities.  It is recognized and handled by local community standards.  This applies even in the US.

This is not true. This a getting a little off topic, but people should know these things, especially if they are considering to live here permanently. The political parties here organize right down to jefes at the individual neighborhood (barrio) level. Again the heirarchy thing. This is how the PRI party was able to stay in power for an uninterrupted 72 years. In the U.S.A. this would be called influence peddling and pork barrel politics, but that it is the way in Mexico, and it is very unlikely to change any time soon. It's not what you know, it's who you know. This is also one of the reasons you should learn Spanish -proper, formal Spanish - not the beach slang'in twang.

What is beach slang in twang? People con the coasts speak proper Spanish.

CHILLIN wrote:A timely post on McClatchy blog. The Peruvian novelist who in the 1990's called PRI Mexico the"perfect dictatorship"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/29/210133/the-pri-and-its-most-notable-critic.html

and according to your link-he doesn't now.

As the chairman of a large company used to say , it is not who you know but who knows you...

CHILLIN wrote:

TrueBrit wrote: Of course there is a disconnect between government and local communities.  It is recognized and handled by local community standards.  This applies even in the US.

This is not true. This a getting a little off topic, but people should know these things, especially if they are considering to live here permanently. The political parties here organize right down to jefes at the individual neighborhood (barrio) level. Again the heirarchy thing. This is how the PRI party was able to stay in power for an uninterrupted 72 years. In the U.S.A. this would be called influence peddling and pork barrel politics, but that it is the way in Mexico, and it is very unlikely to change any time soon. It's not what you know, it's who you know. This is also one of the reasons you should learn Spanish -proper, formal Spanish - not the beach slang'in twang.

I wasn't talking about political organization - this thread is about community behavior. What is tolerated in one community, perhaps because of religious traditions, religious exclusivity, presence of significant indigenous populations, community size, wealth of the community, social progressive principals, etc., would not be tolerated in another community. Regardless of the 'good neighbor' laws on the books, the community decides what is acceptable when it comes to community issues. Especially when the police cannot be trusted.

HelperGuy wrote:Geezuz, TrueBrit, where do you come up with these non-sequiters?

Unfortunately my post was poorly written. I think I may have implied that it was the rave that my neighbors 'found it noisy, but were not complaining' when in fact this referred to the noise this week in the plaza. Which of course they did find noisy, but were not complaining.

My understanding of a non-sequitur is an inference that does not follow from the argument. An example would be if we were talking about the local tolerance of noise, and that there exist noise ordinances, but that these ordinances are clearly ignored (by observation), then if it is proposed that these ordinances are being ignored without the implicit consent of the local community, then any law for community good (drunk-driving laws, for example) would require local consent for it to be applied, then I would consider that to be denying the antecedent. This would be a classic non-sequitur.

Hey TrueBrit:

 

I will be having one or two at the plaza tonight enjoying this wonderful fiesta. A good discussion always makes me thirsty.

Enjoy! Well-deserved.

smint wrote: People con the coasts speak proper Spanish.

Nope - a riddle of slang - and they are proud of it! They put sizzle in their schnizzle. The Sinaloans especially, have made a whole trademark out of it. Ever heard the ballad of Chalino Sanchez?

CHILLIN wrote:

smint wrote: People con the coasts speak proper Spanish.

Nope - a riddle of slang - and they are proud of it! They put sizzle in their schnizzle. The Sinaloans especially, have made a whole trademark out of it. Ever heard the ballad of Chalino Sanchez?

Once again, and as you have proved throughout the years on these boards, you have no idea about what you post.  There are many, many educated costeños that speak proper Spanish. And many of those same people wouldn't be caught dead listening to musica naca.