Investing in Mexico, Mortgage Funds

I'm thinking about putting that ocean front property in Az up for sale.

Worst case scenario heard from people I have spoken to: Years and years to get your property back, and then, in what condition?

Dawg, what is your opinion of precious metals?

Personally anyone offering me 14% on any kind of paper would be laughed out the door.

Investing in mortgage backed paper is what happened in the U.S. which did a massive amount of damage to many, including retirement funds such as Calpers. Add to that the extreme difficulty from a judicial standpoint of evicting someone in this country, and you're probably going to kiss your dinero goodbye.

Intercasa wrote:

Mortgage investors generally get 8 to 14% depending on risk but few arrangers of mortgages locally actually underwrite the files as they have little to no formal experience in such and lack the capacity to check a credit report which is very important and many do not require an appraisal.

Dawg knows brokers in Northern California who will sell you paper backed by residential first deeds of trust or, if you wish to go that route, paper backed by second deeds of trust with aggregate loans-to-value of the first trust deed or the first and second trust deeds combined not exceeding 80% of property value as evidenced by an independent appraisal performed by a third party real estate appraiser licensed by the state, a full-disclosure financial statement and three years of income tax data on the borrower(s) plus credit reports on same issued by an independent credit reporting agency with loans limited to only borrowers with sterling credit. There will be title insurance assuring the property with improvements represented as being therupon exist as represented, the validity and seniority of the lien on the property and proof of dispòsition of the purchase money or refinance funds distributed by the escrow agent which in California will be the title company. The deed of trust will only secure properties upon which there are single family residences not under the course of construction and there will be no land loans permitted. The file will include hazard insurance fully covering the dwelling with loss proceeds of any insurance paid for damages under the policy assigned to the lender. Services will be employed that will inform the lender of any delinquent taxes or attempts to further encumber the property with junior trust deeds. No additional loans secured by junior trust deeds will be allowed. Any assumptions will accelerate the debt in full immediately. All properties securing this investment paper will be located in the area in which the firm generating the paper is located and out-of-area or out-of-state paper will not be allowed. There will be assurances that any paid-off loans will be replaced by mortgage paper of equal or greater value and no loans will be made unless secured by deeds of trust on California properties and never where the potential for the need for judicial foreclosure proceedings is in any way contemplated.

You buy this paper from the people I know in California and you´ll receive a return of 12% per annum "guaranteed" forever vs., at best, 14% for far riskier mortgage-backed paper in Mexico where any principal repayment of significance will be paid to your great grandson in his dotage long after you´re dead unless another lucky stiff can be found to buy your paper. Sound familiar?

That is, you could buy this California investment paper if I could tell you in all honesty that I would buy it myself which I will never do so I guess you´ll have to resort to the yellow pages.

[quote="raqueteer"]Dawg, what is your opinion of precious metals?

Personally anyone offering me 14% on any kind of paper would be laughed out the door.

Investing in mortgage backed paper is what happened in the U.S. which did a massive amount of damage to many, including retirement funds such as Calpers. Add to that the extreme difficulty from a judicial standpoint of evicting someone in this country, and you're probably going to kiss your dinero goodbye.[/quote]

Raqueteer, Dawg is the wrong person to ask about investing in precious metals as I consider investments in precious metals to be highly speculative and risky but, then, I am 69 years old and resolutely determined to invest with an eye toward principal preservation even at the risk, today, of lost opportunity costs associated with very conservative, highly liquid, low return FDIC insured CDs and the like. Admittedly, the minute IRAs and 401Ks were invented, Dawg & Dawgette started saving every tax deferred dollar we could and a lot of that savings was invested in relatively conservative but, in those days, damn high performing stock market mutual funds. Fortunately (?) for us, we got old and switched from high-flying to low-cruising just before the merde hit the fan for the first time back in the early 2000s. We put everything into CDs and blue-chip corporate bonds, got the hell out of high-cost San Francisco and moved to low-cost (in 2001) Lake Chapala and low-cost (even today) Chiapas and our amigos who stayed in the stock market and kept those suburban homes in Northern California places such as Sacramento with all that paper equity which has since disappeared are flipping burgers down at Bob´s Big Boy today and that saddens us. We were just lucky to escape financial ruin, not smarter, and some of our friends were not so lucky. Yes, today we live in poverty-stricken Chiapas instead of that beachfront house on the Alabama Coast or at Playa Del Carmen we originally envisioned but we ain´t flipping no burgers we don´t plan to eat ourselves.

Dawg was a national bank examiner in San Francisco for a time back in the 1970s and 80s and remembers friends and colleagues who became filthy rich developing a new product for Wells Fargo Bank and others which securitized mortgage loans that folks like the geniuses at CALPERS invested in and now these old friends, retired and living in splendor in the San Francisco Bay Area sip champagne at their estates while so many have suffered financial ruin because of the products they developed that made my friends rich. Where is the justice in that?

Actually Dawg, I don't really consider them as investments, rather as insurance against any possible devaluation of fiat currencies. While I don't really wish to divulge my age, Mr. Raqueteer is approaching (gasp) 74.

Regarding the securitization of mortgage paper, there was and still is no justice. May those predators choke on that champagne.

We also just managed to escape total financial ruin, and did pretty well for awhile on super conservative bonds. However now, the returns are rather paltry. So we're are diligently trying to adopt a downwardly mobile lifestyle.

Investing in mortgages in Mexico is better than investing in mortgages in the US for a few reasons:

Most all Mx Mortgages are 1sts, rarely 2nds.
Due to tight credit and stringent standards, an investor can attract a higher quality borrower while still collecting 10-12%.
Loan to value ratios are generally lower, hence more security for the investor.

Intercasa wrote:Investing in mortgages in Mexico is better than investing in mortgages in the US for a few reasons:

Most all Mx Mortgages are 1sts, rarely 2nds.
Due to tight credit and stringent standards, an investor can attract a higher quality borrower while still collecting 10-12%.
Loan to value ratios are generally lower, hence more security for the investor.

So, what's the deal on eviction if the whole deal goes south. Where's the guarantee?

According to Intercasa:

"investing in mortgages in Mexico is better than investing in mortgages in the U.S. for a few reasons:

"...Due to tight credit and stringent standards, an investor can attract a higher quality borrower while still collecting 10-12%. (and) loan to value ratios are generally lower, hence more security for the investor."

Yet, Intercasa also informs us in another posting (regarding the underwriting of Mexican mortgages:

[Mortgage investors generally get 8 to 14% depending on risk but few arrangers of mortgages locally actually underwrite the files as they have little to no formal experience in such and lack the capacity to check a credit report which is very important and many do not require an appraisal. Mortgages can be a great investment BUT if something goes wrong you lose your income stream and at time may need to pay the costs of the judicial foreclosure. [/quote]

We also are given to understand that if the person "arranging" your loans does a good job, you will not experience (m)any problems. Would that be the "arranger" who lacks the capacity to check a credit report or require an appraisal to determine those conservative loan-to-value ratios?

My purpose here is not to try to contradict Intercasa but to warn all of you seeking alternative investment opportunities to do your due diligence and understand the risks associated with your investment choices. Dawg has nothing to sell any of you.

Mortgage investments are great investments but they are also for a generally more sophisticated investor and a bit more so here in Mexico.

You have the property as collateral if the borrower doesn't pay but obtaining the property either getting it or selling it at auction through a judicial foreclosure process can take time and money. Attorneys might want 20% of the mortgage to do all the litigation, not generally a problem if you only loaned 40% of the value or less as when all is said and done there will be plenty of equity to sell for a good price for a quick sale and to pay all expenses.

This is where the part about the sophisticated investor comes in. While local private arrangers of mortgages tout their "no appraisal" required in their advertising to entice borrowers, it really is a disservice to the investor unless the investor knows what the market is in a certain neighborhood to properly calculate risk and the worst case scenario if they have to file a foreclosure action.

These arrangers also say no credit checks, well that again is more risk and also a disservice to the investor as one cannot really underwrite a loan or calculate risk without reviewing a credit report.

Even assuming, arguendo, that the person doesn't have traditional credit, you can underwrite based on non traditional methods of checking payment histories to measure risk, something the other guys don't attempt to do and which usually weeds out the flakes and scammers up front.

We still don't know the ins and out of eviction. Are these mortgages for Americans, or Mexicans?
What's the process, and what if the evictee refuses to leave?

Intercasa wrote:Mortgage investments are great investments but they are also for a generally more sophisticated investor and a bit more so here in Mexico.
.

Actually, residential mortgage lending is not sophisticated at all. Traditional underwriting guidelines are formulaic and easily understood. The reader will find my brief outline on the basic rules of residential (as opposed to commercial) mortgage lending and packaging residential mortgages for securitization to assure mimimal risk relative to return on investment in my post on Page 2 of this thread. The reason the residential mortgage market and securities backed by residential mortgages got into so much trouble in the U.S. in the last few years was because underwriters ignored traditional guidelines for mortgage underwriting and became "sophisticated" which is another word for "creative". There is no room for creativity or "rule bending" in residential mortgage lending whether in gauging the borrower´s ability to repay the loan or assessing the underlying value of the collateral backing the loan which is a function of understanding the residual market value of the real property, ongoing market trends in the market and the complexities of collateral liquidation in a particular legal jurisdiction among other things.

When assessing the risk inherent in residential mortgage lending, remember, unlike truly sophisticated lending disciplines such as secured and unsecured commercial bank short and long term lending to business, residential mortgage lending is best administerered with an eye to orthodoxy not innovation.

If your dance partner is so "sophisticated" you can´t wrap your feeble mind around that partner´s fancy two step, sit out the next dance before you decide to share his/her bed and I am not speaking of anyone in particular here but investment counsellors in general - especially if they seem "avant-garde" and dismissive of traditions in traditional disciplines such as the necessity of a formal independent appraisal in writing using various valuation methods of any collateral underlying an investment deal predicated on an outlay of cash from your own personal pocket.

Well said Dawg!

These mortgages are for all persons although some investors prefer to loan to foreigners as they come from a culture of paying on time.

It isn't eviction it is a foreclosure action and in the action you can ask for them to leave the property and for the right of possession, in simple terms.

The reason things got messed up in the US was people (lenders / investors) thinking the rise in values would never end and that it would somehow make a future cushion (equity, lower LTV) to compensate for poor or looser underwriting standards. Then to replenish the investor's funds they would use the loans as collateral to borrower money to fund loans but then would undercollateralize so using a face value of $1,000,000US for example as collateral to borrow $5,000,000US, problem was that when values sank, that $1,000,000US portfolio used as collateral might only fetch $500,000US so then some one was left holding the $4,500.000US bag! Hope that makes some sense, it is my quick and easy explanation.

raqueteer wrote:We still don't know the ins and out of eviction. Are these mortgages for Americans, or Mexicans?
What's the process, and what if the evictee refuses to leave?

I believe Intercasa is speaking on this thread about mortgage loans to either Mexicans or Americans or borrowers from elsewhere for that matter but loans secured by residential real estate located in Mexico. The foreclosure procedure is dictated by the jurisdiction in which the real property is located and, as in the United States, can vary significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction which is the reason most mortgage underwriters traditionally underwrote mortgage loans only in political subdivisions with which they were familiar. Your question is a good one because the cost and complexity of the foreclosure process, the subsequent eviction of the former owners and the complexities of the re-sale process of the collateral once the lender has acquired title are all factors delimiting the net proceeds available to the investor once all costs of liquidation have been covered. In most jurisdictions, the secured lender is only entitled to the net proceeds available from the liquidation of the collateral unless some deficiency can be recovered through subsequent legal action as may sometimes be an alternative available the investor but that might be a hellacious and expensive process. Before you get yours, many vultures may be lined up to feed on the carcass before you get the leftovers, once again, depending on the particular political jurisdiction where the collateral is located.

In most cases, the investor has no recourse to the defaulting borrower outside of expensive legal proceedings so, if you ever make this kind of investment, worry about the collateral, not the borrower. Depending on the jurisdiction and the guile of the borrower, it may take you years to get rid of the borrower while you sit on a non-earning investment hoping to recover at least a portion of your principal.

[quote="Intercasa"]These mortgages are for all persons although some investors prefer to loan to foreigners as they come from a culture of paying on time.

Well, the implication of that remark is that in Mexico, borrowers do not value the notion of "paying on time". Another very good reason to avoid investing in residential mortgages in Mexico.

It isn't eviction it is a foreclosure action and in the action you can ask for them to leave the property and for the right of possession, in simple terms.

In a foreclosure action, the former owners are indeed "evicted" by the new owner but this isn´t always as simple as it seems if unforeseen legal issues arise. Normally, however, evicting the former owners from the property is not an issue and can be accomplished easily enough.

The reason things got messed up in the US was people (lenders / investors) thinking the rise in values would never end and that it would somehow make a future cushion (equity, lower LTV) to compensate for poor or looser underwriting standards. Then to replenish the investor's funds they would use the loans as collateral to borrower money to fund loans but then would undercollateralize so using a face value of $1,000,000US for example as collateral to borrow $5,000,000US, problem was that when values sank, that $1,000,000US portfolio used as collateral might only fetch $500,000US so then some one was left holding the $4,500.000US bag! Hope that makes some sense, it is my quick and easy explanation.

This is a vast oversimplification of what happened in the mortgage lending arena in the U.S. but indirectly supports my contention that "creative" underwriting criteria and unbridled greed tanked the mortgage lending industry and contributed to the bubble that nearly ate America. Since Intercasa has earlier posited the notions that "creative" underwriting practices are in vogue in Mexico and borrowers lack the discipline to make mortgage payments in a timely fashion on a recurring basis, perhaps there are better places for one´s investment capital. quote]

Allow me to be more clear on the implications of mortgages and the judicial system in Mexico.

Should the borrower default, and one is required to foreclose prior to eviction, the judicial system is notoriously slow as we should all realize. Thus we are left with a non-performing loan, a reluctant to leave homeowner, and a system that may take years to resolve. Furthermore, once a certain period of time elapses during which the borrower is not paying as agreed, however is protected by the judicial system, he or she may then claim squatters rights, as I understand it. May then go to court and claim legal right to the property.

Is this, or is it not correct?

Yes, one needs to foreclose before evicting as one needs to show they have the legal standing to evict, i.e. be an owner and not just a lienholder and the foreclosure process is just that, changing title.

I did not mention in detail here but another option is the land trust (fideicomiso) used by banks when securing loans to US / Canadian borrowers (usually for terms up to 30 years and rates 8 to 9%) where the process to foreclose is expedited, akin the the trustee sale provisions in a deed of trust where title is changed in 6 months and cheap, but an eviction action would therefore be necessary.

raqueteer wrote:Allow me to be more clear on the implications of mortgages and the judicial system in Mexico.

Should the borrower default, and one is required to foreclose prior to eviction, the judicial system is notoriously slow as we should all realize. Thus we are left with a non-performing loan, a reluctant to leave homeowner, and a system that may take years to resolve. Furthermore, once a certain period of time elapses during which the borrower is not paying as agreed, however is protected by the judicial system, he or she may then claim squatters rights, as I understand it. May then go to court and claim legal right to the property.
Is this, or is it not correct?

An excellent, thought-provoking comment raqueteer.

In many ways, Mexican law and French law are similar. While I am not familiar with mortgage lending in Mexico, I have heard that foreclosures and evictions of former owners can be complicated in Mexico and I´d personally like more information on that subject.

I know that back in the 1980s, my wife and I thought of buying a retirement home in France and she warned me that squatter´s rights in France are far different than in the U.S. and that if we purchased a property there we would not occupy for a number of years we would have to have friends or family safeguard the house from squatters who, over time, could move into the home and claim legitimate title to the property over time if we did not evict them expeditiously. Because of this technicality, the fact that we would not be retiring for another 20 plus years and the fact as well that the property we were contemplating as an investment was located in a remote area, we declined the purchase as too risky.

This eviction issue raises the question as to whether one wishes to invest in securities or direct loans in foreign lands when one is unfamiliar with the laws regarding the rights of investors and debtors. A damn risky proposition if you ask me.

I don't believe people who had a contract can claim to be squatters. There is an expedited foreclosure process if filed within certain time limits, things can still drag on.

This is why mortgage investing is for sophisticated investors, those who understand that their income stream may stop and who may have to put out money to protect their investment but understand that the risk of that also benefits them by yielding more than other fixed yield investments.

It is a matter of calculating, if you can do without the income for up to 2 to 3 years and can outlay the money in the event of judicial action being necessary and have done the math, i.e. loaning up to 40% the value, assuming worst case scenario selling the home for 60% of the value at auction, etc. then planning for holding / sale costs if you end up taking the property to sell to recoup your money.

In the end it is all time and money and a matter of waiting but in the end if you plan right you'll have all your money back plus interest. If it isn't for you then buy CETES and get 4%.

I make a point of reading all the mortgage foreclosure cases I come across at the courthouse. The more interesting ones are when there are gringos involved, Mexicans usually don't fight and will do a deed in lieu of ("Cesion de derechos"). I did translate a 24 page judgment where the Mexican borrowers did fight and win but it was a $10,000,000 peso loan and commercial.

If I walk into my branch of CIBC, I can sit down with a financial advisor/salesperson and buy a "mortgage fund". The underlying portfolio can hold residential, commercial, or both mortgages. They'll pay 5%+ interest and can go up or down in value. Is it possible to buy similar instruments in Mx from say Bancomer, HSBC, Llyods, Whomever? Thx

Is an individual who loans money to a home purchaser here in Mexico a lienholder, or do they hold title to the property?

I think, but don't really know how long a person can remain in possession of a property before they can apply to become the de facto owners. Is it a matter of months, or could it be years. I'm thinking that it may be months.

I have heard of a property dispute here where a mobile home was left on a property and legal action was taken to take possession of the land in question.

In any case, I'm going to go with the Dawg here, since French Law and Mexican Law are both Napoleonic.

Too risky IMHO.

Generally one who loans money is a lienholder as there will be a mortgage recorded on the property. That could be different if you are the seller and the type of contract you use, could leave you with some ownership rights and not perfecting the purchaser's ownership until you are paid in full.

I've done mortgage investments for years in the US and while at times things got dicey, my people never lost money (mainly due to focusing on low LTV ratios as a worst case exit scenario and working and having an open dialogue with the borrowers to have an amicalbe resolution).

The sytem here in Mexico is different and I still have alot to learn although educational information is not as readily available here as it is in the US. I get practical experience by reading actual court case files in litigation but also haven't been impressed by anybody yet with regards to mortgage law.

A good potential resource if you can nail him down would be Jorge Luis Ramos Uriarte. He is a notario and prepares mortgage contracts BUT ALSO has an attorney who works for him that litigates in the event on non payment. In my opinion he gets to see the fruits of his work as other notarios may prepare the contracts, they don't see how they hold up in the event of a dispute.

I don't believe people who had a contract can claim to be squatters. There is an expedited foreclosure process if filed within certain time limits, things can still drag on.

I don´t quite understand this. You are selling Mexican mortgage investments but you "...don´t believe people who had a contract (?) can claim to be squatters." You are selling these "investment" products but don´t "believe" these folks with "contracts" can claim to be squatters if they default? How can you equivocate on something as important as debtor´s potential squatter´s rights - a critically important thing to know if you are to represent that you are aware of the pitfalls awaiting the potential investor down the road. If I am about to invest $1,000,000 Pesos in a mortgage at your recommendation, I want to know what you KNOW - not what you believe. An investment advisor cannot equivocate on such matters.

You also state that there is an expedited foreclosure process but "...things can still drag on." Well that´s comforting. Do you actually have investors who still fork out money upon hearing that, at liquidation of a defaulted debt and during the recovery of principal process, "...things can still drag on." To the best of Dawg´s knowledge, when things drag on in Mexico they REALLY drag on and the judicial foreclosure process is a can of worms if there ever was one - that´s why the "deed of trust" system was adopted in places like California - to expedite the collateral liquidation process unequivocally.


This is why mortgage investing is for sophisticated investors, those who understand that their income stream may stop and who may have to put out money to protect their investment but understand that the risk of that also benefits them by yielding more than other fixed yield investments.

It is a matter of calculating, if you can do without the income for up to 2 to 3 years and can outlay the money in the event of judicial action being necessary and have done the math, i.e. loaning up to 40% the value, assuming worst case scenario selling the home for 60% of the value at auction, etc. then planning for holding / sale costs if you end up taking the property to sell to recoup your money.

"That´s why mortgage investing (in Mexico) is for sophisticated investors." In other words, they might get screwed to the wall and the word "sophisticated" is used here just as it is for esoteric
and complex investments in the U.S. Basically, the investment advisor is telling the potential investor that, since the investment instrument is complex and highly risky, the investor must have deep pockes in order to ride out any adversity and could lose his or her shirt and underpants as well. Then the investment advisor tells the potential investor not to worry because if he/she can afford to ride out the years during which the judicial foreclosure action is dragging through the courts without any return on principal which may or may not be ultimately recovered, he/she should not worry as the LTV was only 40-60% at inception of the loan. Does that sound familiar? How many investors got screwed in the U.S. in the past few years because they were assured that the value of the property securing their loans would always be more than sufficient to recover their principal outlay at collateral liquidation? Anybody who tells you that "...assuming worst case scenario (holding the property for an indeterminate period of time with no return forthcoming and selling it at auction for a fraction of its value) you...recoup your money." is blowing smoke up your butt. Soup kitchens in the U.S. are today serving mystery meat stew to lots of "investors" and deluded ex-homeowners who believed in that tooth fairy a few years ago.


In the end it is all time and money and a matter of waiting but in the end if you plan right you'll have all your money back plus interest. If it isn't for you then buy CETES and get 4%.

Finally, some good advice. Unless you are "sophisticated" and don´t mind waiting for possible recovery or partial recovery or eventual write-off of of principal and accrued interest due you as a Mexican mortgage investor at some nebulous and undetermined time in the future, be an "unsophisticated" rube and buy CETES at a lesser promised return and sleep at night or, better still, invest in U.S. Treasury Bills and convert money to pesos as needed down here.

I make a point of reading all the mortgage foreclosure cases I come across at the courthouse. The more interesting ones are when there are gringos involved, Mexicans usually don't fight and will do a deed in lieu of ("Cesion de derechos"). I did translate a 24 page judgment where the Mexican borrowers did fight and win but it was a $10,000,000 peso loan and commercial.

So? I take it your conclusion is that what you call "gringos" tend to pay on time better than Mexicans but Mexicans tend to roll over at foreclosure time while "gringo" foreclosure cases are "The more interesting ones...." What the hell are you trying to say? How does that inconclusive information help guide us in making a "sophisticated" investment decision?

You "sophisticated" investors be my guest and invest in those great Mexican mortgages, you rubes can buy Confederate Bills from Dawg for pennies on the dollar and we can retire to the ole cracker barrel, drink some Pabst Blue Ribbon and snack contentedly on "cracklins" and pickled hard boiled eggs with the certain knowledge that those Confederate Bills are worthless right up front so we don´t have to lie awake at night like those "sophisticates" wondering interminably if we´ll ever see our money again since we won´t have any to worry about.

Whew! However, I agree with you entirely.
Yes, interest rates on your money in a safe haven really suck right now. Give it time. Sleep well and let the other fella enjoy those sophisticated roads to riches. There may even more wailing and gnashing of teeth down the money road.

Or.........steal some gold, bury it in the backyard with a dead pirate draped across the chest.
Ho ho ho and a bottle of rum.

There is no black and white, just gray. I've invested millions of my clients' money in the US, no problems and had to deal with foreclosures. Some people love investing in mortgages. I've invested my own money for years and made great returns.

It seems as if you are focusing on the worst case scenario which while possible, shouldn't happen all the time and if you plan right, you can do very well. There are quite a few people investing in mortgages here.

I think you are missing the point and assuming all will go south always. I explained the worst case but have been doing this over 20 years, I know my shit and protect my investors.

If you have questions, that is why I listed the notario who litigates mortgage foreclosures as you can get direct information from someone who litigates those matters, I don't do so currently.

You are being a bit silly, do you go to your bank and requests info on their FDIC policy and how to recover if the bank goes under?

Maybe your mattress is your best investment angle!?

Intercasa said:
"You are being a bit silly, do you go to your bank and requests info on their FDIC policy and how to recover if the bank goes under?"

Who are you calling "silly"? Condescending remarks don't contribute to your argument.....they just piss people off. Not a good business strategy.

There are people who, with or without a law or accounting degree, have been successfully investing their money for more years than you've been self-supporting. Those with a good sense of timing have done well. Those who buy high and sell low have a different tale to tell.

There are people who wish they had invested in the equivalent of the Bank of Mattress during the last debacle rather than in mortgage backed securities, as the Hound pointed out above.

In these times, if you can't make a joke about the current financial insecurity......you're in a different kind of trouble.

But..........you're in the business, so nobody blames you for putting on the salesman hat for your products.

And, you are appreciated for the many bits of free advice you have distributed on this and other web boards. Carry on.