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Post by viajero on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:27 am

suegarn wrote:  Why don't Mexicans automatically register their children when they are born?    
Most do,but oftentimes a current birth certificate,less than 6 months old,is required to complete a goverment tramite,example,my wife had to had have a new one sent from Guanajuato to renew her credencial.

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Post by Gamina on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:33 am

I'd like an answer to whether or not Mario has SP or IMSS before I donate. Anyone?
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Post by RVGRINGO on Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:01 pm

Home births are sometimes not registered, or records are lost in fires in homes or even in the registry. An example is that many of us older veterans had all our records destroyed in a record depot fire back in the 70s. Fortunately, I have my DD214 and a few other records, but not the complete file, which is gone forever.

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Post by Zedinmexico on Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:12 pm

You folks assume a lot about Mario. You are assuming he wants a conventional treatment. Maybe he wants a choice like most of us have. Mario is a friend and I just want him to have a choice so I will give. If you don't want to give that is fine also. Some of this gets old.

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Post by Trailrunner on Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:30 pm

Man, I agree. This thread is just rude and mean and says a lot more about you than it does about him. If you don't want to give, just don't. Try a little compassion, graciousness, and respect - someday it will be your turn.
There's more than one way to treat cancer and several of those ways are not covered by SP/IMSS/or any other.
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Post by suegarn on Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:39 pm

Trailrunner wrote:Man, I agree. This thread is just rude and mean and says a lot more about you than it does about him. If you don't want to give, just don't. Try a little compassion, graciousness, and respect - someday it will be your turn.
There's more than one way to treat cancer and several of those ways are not covered by SP/IMSS/or any other.

I don't think that any of us were being rude or mean. We were just asking about medical coverage. And if he wants to go with alternative treatments, that is definitely his choice. But if that's the case, I don't think that it's appropriate to ask for funds on a public forum and expect everyone to just agree wholeheartedly to donate. I think that our responses are valid, while still showing compassion for others. And yes, someday we may all be in that situation, and may ask for help, but I know that I would respect other peoples questions about financial aid.

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Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:39 pm

The OP passed on the information for the person running the fund raiser. If you have further questions it would be better to go to the link provided and get answers from the source. Then donate or not.
If you simply object to this type of endeavor in general just don't comment -- or start a new thread where you can rant away and likely be joined by others who feel the same way. Posting your objections here makes it appear that you are trying to stop others from donating.
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Post by suegarn on Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:08 pm

Lady Otter Latté wrote:The OP passed on the information for the person running the fund raiser. If you have further questions it would be better to go to the link provided and get answers from the source. Then donate or not.
If you simply object to this type of endeavor in general just don't comment -- or start a new thread where you can rant away and likely be joined by others who feel the same way. Posting your objections here makes it appear that you are trying to stop others from donating.


Nowhere in my post did I post any objections, other than stating the fact that people have the right to ask questions before donating to any cause. I would be very willing to donate, but only after knowing the situation and what exactly is needed. When did asking valid questions become 'ranting'?

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Post by Jerry00 on Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:30 pm

I think if people asked more questions their would be less scams.

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Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:32 pm

The asking questions and the ranting were two separate issues. I thought the first sentence in my second paragraph made that clear. Sorry if it did not.
Anyone donating money has a right to ask questions. I was suggesting this thread was not the place most likely to get the answers from the source.
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Post by slainte39 on Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:59 am

Lady Otter Latté wrote:
If you simply object to this type of endeavor in general just don't comment -- or start a new thread where you can rant away and likely be joined by others who feel the same way. Posting your objections here makes it appear that you are trying to stop others from donating.

I totally agree........

The need for some people to comment on every thread is evident and then you get divergent opinions and views which are off subject and result in people like myself defending the SP program, which wasn't even the primary topic of the thread.
Either donate to his cause or let it pass without comment unless you are SURE it is some form of scam, otherwise it results in the total dilution of the intent, which was honorable to most/some.


There are many opinions/posts/requests/etc., on this board that are not beyond the pale, somewhat reasonable, but that I don't agree with.
I don't think my contrary opinion is that important......maybe once in a while.

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Post by Zedinmexico on Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:43 pm

This is not a scam if folks are worried about that issue. Mario has had surgery for cancer and now is trying to figure out what treatment to do. I have known Mario for years.

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Post by suegarn on Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:34 pm

"There are many opinions/posts/requests/etc., on this board that are not beyond the pale, somewhat reasonable, but that I don't agree with.
I don't think my contrary opinion is that important......maybe once in a while."


slainte39, I think that 5049 posts in just over 2000 days of being a member of this board is a little more than 'once in a while'.

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Post by Semalu on Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:50 pm

If I dare to weigh in this late in the game I have seen both sides of this coin. I have met many without birth certificates, many due to past government or parish irregularities, many who have no idea if they are married or not, never mind under what marriage regime. Many who live in houses with little clue as to title, and in more than one case have had to go to the judge just so they can prove they are who they say they are: ie: no B.C. many cases of irregular B.C's, many cases of grandfather, son, second sons from second marriage and or various casa chicas etc, all having the same John Smith" name (or "juan sanchez" if you prefer). In many cases, yes,this is the result of fear of due process in a people trained never to ask questions. In most other cases it is willful ignorance, and sometimes it is willful deception and/or all of the above. Three comments about this particular thread that I would like to share are all somewhat at cross purposes so I am sure I will get flak:
1. There is no excuse for ignorance of the law. Educate them yes, but if its the old "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make hime drink" well, then you have to make a hard decision. As Mom always said, just lie back and think of Darwin.
2. I am delighted to see many expats finally questioning all these requests for money and doing their own due diligence (DYODD). Keep it up.
3. If this person is indeed known, and if this man is indeed "starving" (willful or otherwise), I have never yet seen this kind of problem resolved by arguing semantics over his head as the man lies starving below.
Maybe this is a teaching lesson for everyone involved. Take care of the crisis and also take care of the problem?

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Post by slainte39 on Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:38 pm

suegarn wrote:"There are many opinions/posts/requests/etc., on this board that are not beyond the pale, somewhat reasonable, but that I don't agree with.
I don't think my contrary opinion is that important......maybe once in a while."


slainte39, I think that 5049 posts in just over 2000 days of being a member of this board is a little more than 'once in a while'.



I still don't think my opinion  is that important....maybe once in a while.
But you could be right......maybe as you imply, I think it is a little more and it's probably less (of important opinions).      If so, my bad.

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Post by Lady Otter Latté on Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:05 am

There is a lot of difference among posts that are informative, amusing, conversational, or political and those that offer personal opinion as Truth or are basically chronic nagging and/or complaining. I could be wrong but it seems to me that the vast majority of Slainte's posts fall into the first four categories. All of us are capable of making the latter two types. Some are masters at them.
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Post by slainte39 on Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:25 am

Thank you.....that is how I want to be.

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Post by viajero on Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:42 am

Semalu wrote:If I dare to weigh in this late in the game I have seen both sides of this coin. I have met many without birth certificates, many  due to past government or parish irregularities, many who have no idea if they are married or not, never mind under what marriage regime. Many who live in houses with little clue as to title, and in more than one case have had to go to the judge just so they can prove they are who they say they are: ie: no B.C. many cases of irregular B.C's, many cases of grandfather, son, second sons from second marriage and or various casa chicas etc, all having the same John Smith" name (or "juan sanchez" if you prefer). In many cases, yes,this is the result of fear of due process in a people trained never to ask questions. In most other cases it is willful ignorance, and sometimes it is willful deception and/or all of the above. Three comments about this particular thread that I would like to share are all somewhat at cross purposes so I am sure I will get flak:
1. There is no excuse for ignorance of the law. Educate them yes, but if its the old "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make hime drink" well, then you have to make  a hard decision. As Mom always sa
Semalu,out of 120 million Mexicans an estimated 14 million don't have B.C.s,most of them are from states like Chiapas and Oaxaca.
It has nothing to do with "willful deception",the marital status of their parents or a clear title to their house.
My wife was born in her grandfather's house in a small rancho in Guanajuato,she has a BC,our adopted son's BC doesn't list a father's name on it and I'd be willing to bet that almost all the Mexicans I know have official IDs which you can't get without a BC.

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Post by brigitte on Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:08 am

I am spending more and more time in Chiapas in indigenous communities, I eat there , I sleep there and have many friends there, I know some of the culture better than 99% better than outsiders, can tellyou what the indigenous names of the people are and how they find from which families they come from..The Spanish name is just something they had to adopt but between themselves they trace their roots a different ways, I can tell if they are married or single by symbols on thier clothes or their jewelry and so on..
One of my friend tells me he is 43 according to his birth certificate but his grand-mother tells him he is 46 , they lived far away and was registered 3 years late. One there has on the registry " born today" no one bothered to write down the date..
Most women and men I know are not married. They got "married" by the family when they were 12, 13 14 years old and that is it..This is a little different with the cristianos but most catholics are not married at the registry because, it cost money if you change your mind later on..Many houses are on comunal land and do not have titles.
.Chiapas in the indigenous areas is a different world and you cannot assume anything..nothing to do with corruption , the people just go by a different system..but they all have INE, most of them also have IMSS or Seguro Popular and will pay when they have money to see a private doctor. They all are very familiar with the medical system offered to them and do not trust it. They will first go to the curandero and than to the private doctor if they can rather than going to the overcrowded hospitals..
Another friend was assaulted in a cab 2 nights ago, when my husband asked if we should call the police we were told to forget it, as "they do nothing.".., in Chiapas I can tell you there is a different world living aside from the world we know and we should not presume anything.

I have met, poor people who do not speak Spanish are totally uneducated, walk barefooted, cannot read or write and will tell you about their trip to Paris or Rome...one I know had lunch with the pope in Rome last December and so on..every day I learn something new , Semalu you need to get out more,,all these simplified concepts do not apply in millions of people cases..

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Post by Carry Bean on Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:36 am

From TOB:

we confirmed with Mario yesterday that he does indeed have Seguro Popular insurance. it only covers so much and all further treatments and prescriptions would be paid for by Mario. he would also like some choice of treatment, which is also not covered. he is a good guy and if you can give anything, he's a worthy human....
Like this
Quote

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Post by Semalu on Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:11 pm

Brigitte is 100% correct in this and has put it far more eloquently than I did. Mexico is a country with many layers, very few of which function in ways we are used to. Those layers that do function as we understand them, are frequently not functioning up to par. What follows is meant as an interesting story and as an example of some of the differences.

I was in in Sonora last week taking a taxi to the airport. the driver talked about his community where he lived which used to be an Ejido but was now officially a Colonia under Mexican law. All the same the taxista said their colonia maintained their different legal system than Mexicos that did not recognize Mexican law. He described it as an assemblea system (a throw back to the Ejido and Cacique systems) where miscreants are put before an assemble of all community members and presided over by their leaders who then decide punishment, which can range from a beating, being ostracized from the community, and even the death penalty. He said the system relied on dominance, fear and violence. I asked him if he wouldn't prefer living under rule of law in Mexico and he looked shocked and said no thank-you. Their system worked better at keeping people in line and was not corrupt like the Mexicans (I noted that he did not consider himself to be Mexican).

Who knows, maybe a middle ground is what is needed here. I realize all this has nothing to do with helping Mario, other than to hope a better understanding of how things get done at the different layers of Mexican society may help convince a few to be more lenient, myself included.

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Post by viajero on Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:48 pm

Did the Sonoran taxista who doesn't consider himself to be a Mexican have a driver's license or a taxista permit?
Most of my wife's family grew up on ejido land,but they all consider themselves to be Mexicans.

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Post by Playaboy on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:17 pm

Most of my Maya friends in Qroo consider themselves Maya 1st and Mexican 2nd. Purepecha friends from Michoacan feel the same way.

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Post by viajero on Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:29 pm

Playaboy wrote:Most of my Maya friends in Qroo consider themselves Maya 1st and Mexican 2nd.  Purepecha friends from Michoacan feel the same way.  
Yeah,it's kinda like me considering myself a Californian first and an American second,it means nothing.

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Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:41 pm

Meanwhile, back to Mario who still needs help....
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Post by Carry Bean on Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:13 pm

Even though he has Seguro Popular...

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